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Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform

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Re: Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform

#271

Post by lmm »

nathas wrote: post #228
eloisant wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

C# as a language is better than Java, but not as good as Scala.

Can you explain why you think so?

Most of the selling points on scala-lang.org still apply over C# - type inference, pattern matching, case classes (C# makes these less bad than Java, but the field/property distinction can still bite you), an inheritance model that supports the good parts of multiple inheritance without the problems, covariance/contravariance, for/yield syntax that's generic and user-controlled, higher-kinded types.

It takes a while for your code to get big enough for the last part to matter, but it's huge when it does - you can handle any kind of "context" in a generic way, e.g. async calls, error handling, audit logging, software transactional memory, or custom things for e.g. database access. F# has a number of these specific implementations but they're kind of "hard-coded" in the language rather than fully extensible. So I guess the pitch is: imagine C# async/await could be "just a library", and other contexts that you wanted to handle similarly could also be a library, and the resulting functions are first-class citizens in the type system (no awkward choices of whether a particular function is async or not, you can handle that generically).

Re: Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform

#272

Post by GhotiFish »

akmiller wrote: post #237
jbob2000 wrote: post #157

aka "We're actually facing competition from open source now, so we're going to listen to what people have been saying for years. Love us?"

You really need to step back and look at how much Microsoft has already changed under the leadership of Satya Nadella. It does appear that he has a completely different vision of what Microsoft will be in the future compared to what Ballmer had.

The devil you know eh?

Microsoft has being at the locus of so much bad behaviour in the tech sector that I really have to wonder. Even if Stallman started running the company, how much could it change?

Re: Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform

#273

Post by Someone1234 »

bchen wrote: post #192
MagicWishMonkey wrote: post #155

Does anyone know if this means an OSX/Linux version of Visual Studio might one day be possible?

I am hoping JetBrains folks will port their suite of .Net tools to other platforms. Since the core of these tools is already cross platform (JVM-based), it may happen faster than Microsoft does to Visual Studio.

Most of the JetBrains products won't be relevant when Roslyn ships. Visual Studio 2015 already ships with many ReSharper features out of the box, with the ability to add the missing ones being made trivial by the new Roslyn APIs.

I definitely won't be running ReSharper in VS 2015.

Re: Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform

#274

Post by theoutlander »

wernercd wrote: post #89
Danieru wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One theory I've read is Microsoft wants Xamarin to stay third-party so Microsoft's competitors continue working with them. Xamarin is working with a great many companies who would think twice about working with Microsoft directly. This way Microsoft can shove money to Xamarin to forward the ecosystem without scaring anyone.

Nice theory... but they went the opposite direction with Nokia. I don't think they'd have any issue purchasing Xamarin and importing/re-branding.

AFAIK, Nokia didn't want to be affiliated with MS...not the other way around.

Re: Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform

#275

Post by noselasd »

Someone1234 wrote: post #32

It will be interesting to see how this will work in practice. C# will port over just fine. But the .Net libraries? System.Windows has little to nothing in it, and right now using things like System.IO.* on Linux and Mac is just asking for trouble. What are they going to do, hack in System.IO.* Linux support after the fact? Or just add Linux.IO.* which is even more of a hack. In either case you're going to get very me…

Ofcourse someone will have to write the linux/osx implementations, but I don't see much in System.IO that would be asking for trouble.

The CreationTime on DirectoryInfo would have to be faked, and it's not entierly clear if FileSecurity would map cleanly to posix acls, but nothing sticks out as being fundamentally incompatible with linux at least.

Re: Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform

#276

Post by sz4kerto »

bad_user wrote: post #159
OWaz wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seeing comments like this “I'll never switch back to MS for what they've done in the past” always reminds me of this post from Hanselman http://www.hanselman.com/blog/MicrosoftKilledMyPappy.aspx

I've also been pretty unforgiving about things that Microsoft did in the past to crush competing web browsers, competing standards like OpenGL or ODF, Linux or open-source in general. And sorry, but I do not agree with that article by Hanselman. Thing is, I treat companies like I treat people. Legally speaking, isn't that what they want, in the US anyway? So if you violate my trust, it's goodbye until I see serious a…

> I treat companies like I treat people

I would say this is a really bad strategy. According to unwritten HN rules, I should now start explaining why I think there are differences between a company and a person, and why they should be treated differently thereof.

But I won't. :)

Re: Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform

#277

Post by bad_user »

wernercd wrote: post #195
jbob2000 wrote: post #157

aka "We're actually facing competition from open source now, so we're going to listen to what people have been saying for years. Love us?"

aka "Thanks for giving us what we want, but you're so evil that I can't get past the $ in the name Micro$oft." Stay closed source? People bitch. Open source the software? People bitch. Can't win.

Well I'm one of those people that bitched for as long as the CLR remained closed-source. Not anymore :-)

Re: Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform

#278

Post by djur »

FlyingSnake wrote: post #50

This is epic. Peter Thiel was right about creative Monopoly. The new Microsoft under Satya Nadella has totally changed the direction of Microsoft in just a few months. They had one of the best and rock solid development platforms and research division, and loyal customers. The new Azure cloud (Online + On Premise) along with the opening of .Net will change the playing field. I'm sure this is a great new for us develo…

> Peter Thiel was right about creative Monopoly.

This is coming after a decade of Microsoft losing ground on the server side to Linux and on the consumer side to Apple. If anything, it shows the positive effects of keeping a large firm out of a monopolistic position.

Re: Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform

#279

Post by btown »

Danieru wrote: post #72
WorldWideWayne wrote: post #42

The key points seem to be: "Available Wednesday, Visual Studio Community 2013 is a free, fully featured edition of Visual Studio including full extensibility." So, it sounds like this will replace the Express edition and let you install extensions like you can in the Pro version. "Visual Studio 2015 and .NET 2015: build for any device - Built from the ground up with support for iOS, Android and Windows, Visual Studio…

One theory I've read is Microsoft wants Xamarin to stay third-party so Microsoft's competitors continue working with them. Xamarin is working with a great many companies who would think twice about working with Microsoft directly. This way Microsoft can shove money to Xamarin to forward the ecosystem without scaring anyone.

Not only that, but Xamarin's independent existence is like free insurance for companies choosing .NET - even if Microsoft were to drop support (unlikely, but look at Silverlight), Xamarin would continue providing a viable way forward for the language and runtime. Now that MS's .NET is open source, Xamarin's .NET is like OpenJDK - Xamarin is a governing body and authority for the language/API if Microsoft were to drop it. So it's good for Microsoft to have Xamarin as an independent entity.

Re: Microsoft takes .NET open source and cross-platform

#280

Post by glibgil »

jacquesm wrote: post #147
OWaz wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seeing comments like this “I'll never switch back to MS for what they've done in the past” always reminds me of this post from Hanselman http://www.hanselman.com/blog/MicrosoftKilledMyPappy.aspx

- Stacker - Netscape - SCO And many others besides. Companies have reputations just like people do (that's why we call them 'incorporated') and just like you can lose your trust in a person you can lose your trust in a corporation. This is not about Microsoft just doing 'stupid stuff sometimes' it is about institutionalized criminal behavior sanctioned at the highest level of one of the largest software companies in…

That's not why we call them incorporated. 'Body' or 'corpus' are synonyms for 'organization'. They are called corporations because the embody some coordinated effort, not because someone realized "hey, this organization seems to have a personality. I'll call it a corporation."
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