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Philae has landed

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61–70 of 309 posts

Re: Philae has landed

#61

Amazing job! This might be a silly question but are their any ideas as to the actual real world benefits we could see from this? The director-general of the ESA said "This is a big step for human civilisation" so I presume there is some idea of what they expect to gain from this mission? Edit: Thanks for all the replies! I'm at work now but will take a look at them this evening.

Real world benefit? In 20 years, we move the production capacity of China to space, and everyone, anywhere on the Earth, has the ability to order a product, remotely assembled on our comet moon, for direct delivery. sigh A man can dream.

It would honestly be faster to ship it overseas.

Re: Philae has landed

#62

Congratulations Europe. But why don't we hear people saying that the EU should focus on their poverty first and would be better off putting this money into getting the Greece, Spain, and Italy economies in order?

I'm italian. There are two things I would like to point out: I read that the mission cost about 1.6 bilion $, with that money you don't solve much in countries of about 11, 45 and 60 milion people.

Also, speaking for Italy, I don't think we need more money if we're going to waste it. We need to make reforms, stop wasting a LOT of money and so on

Re: Philae has landed

#63
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Improved understanding of our solar system, its history and our place in the universe is a real benefit that soon will be available for anyone. Comets are generally very old, so can enable us to learn a lot about solar system's history. Achieving engineering capabilities required to land on comets is a step forward for human civilization. I consider the above to be actual real world benefits. If they are not, I'm not…

Thanks. I would definitely consider the second point a real world benefit but if we are going to spend over $1bn to learn about the solar system's history I take it we are hoping to discover something that actually has benefits to humanity (e.g. when the money could have had more immediate impacts treating disease or helping the poor etc.). Don't get me wrong I'm all for these kinds of missions I just thought that to…

First, curiosity and the need for understanding the universe and our place in it are real human needs. I agree they do not have the short-term urgency and fulfilling them is a long-term objective.

Second, having all of humanity live on a single speck of rock puts us in a very precarious position as a species and introduces a single-point of failure to our civilization. Therefore, the development of technical capabilities to move freely around the solar system and eventually beyond is also an objective for humanity. Again, I admit, it is a long-term one without short-term urgency of say, getting rid of Ebola.

So the whole issue is essentially a question of the right balance of the amount of effort we invest in working on our short-term urgent objectives and the long-term ones.

With world GDP in excess of $70 trillion per year [1], spending 1 billion EUR ($1.25 billion) for a decade-long mission does not seem like extravagance.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_world_product

EDIT: To further put the cost of the mission into perspective: assuming the contributions for the mission came from about half a billion people (EU population) over a decade this translates into about 20 euro-cents per year. Seriously, this is not extravagance. In fact, given that the mission cost is over 20% of ESA's yearly budget it makes me think Europe is under-investing in its space capabilities and scientific research. Nitpick: ESA member states don't overlap with the EU exactly, but it is a good enough proxy. More accurate figure would allow for American and other contributions to the on-board instruments so would be even less than 20 euro-cents/year/person.

Re: Philae has landed

#64

Amazing job! This might be a silly question but are their any ideas as to the actual real world benefits we could see from this? The director-general of the ESA said "This is a big step for human civilisation" so I presume there is some idea of what they expect to gain from this mission? Edit: Thanks for all the replies! I'm at work now but will take a look at them this evening.

One thing the other (very good) replies miss: Never underestimate the power of 'gee whiz' technology has on children. This is cool, exciting engineering. Even if the scientific results are "boring", that is to say we don't get any unexpected data, the act of pushing the boundaries of what humans have been able to do is inspirational. There are kids who will learn about this in school the next few days, and see it on the news, and hear grown ups talking about how neat it is, and decide "I want to be an engineer", or "I want to be a scientist". It doesn't take many of them making this decision to have a big, long term impact (which provides a great societal ROI on the mission).

Re: Philae has landed

#65
post #58

More analysis of @Philae2014 telemetry indicates harpoons did not fire as 1st thought Ouch, seems like it didn't land? https://twitter.com/esaoperations/status/532575061543485440 edit - the landing is confirmed, however the harpoons did not fire: https://twitter.com/ESA_Rosetta/status/532579871202238464

It did land, here's the next tweet:

> It looks like @Philae2014 made a fairly gentle touch down on #67P based on amount of landing gear damping #CometLanding

but the harpoons may have failed to fire.

Re: Philae has landed

#67
post #55
post #17

Anyone knows where i could find some info about the software stack this kind of probes are being built with ? Languages, programming methods, patching methods,os, runtime, etc. I'm really curious to know how different it is from the web or enterprise development worlds.

Most likely they have headless web browsers running on both the main spacecraft (probably chromium) and the Philae lander. Web sockets enables the lander to communicate to the spacecraft which then sends its signals down to earth using regular HTTP (you don't want to keep an interstellar HTTP connection open). All of it is of course written in JavaScript, more specifically vanilla-JavaScript - which frankly I find we…

You joke, but FTP has indeed actually been used to communicate between Earth and a probe. A team at NASA's JPL , led by Vinton Cerf, completed a study of what would be needed for an Interplanetary Internet [1]. There are already IETF RFCs for delay-tolerant networking [2], which include mechanisms for store-and-forward communications (e.g. each transceiver is a relay).

Science fiction has some great depictions of interstellar communications, such as my favorite by Vernor Vinge, the Hugo award-winning novel A Fire Upon the Deep. It is a most excellent space opera that prominently features an interstellar system like Usenet as part of the plot [3], as well as superhuman intelligence, physics, and all sorts of other wonderful bits.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interplanetary_Internet

[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delay-tolerant_networking

[3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Fire_Upon_the_Deep

Re: Philae has landed

#68
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like other embedded systems, spacecraft computers use real-time operating systems (RTOS) and languages: * The Rosetta probe ultimately runs SCL (Spacecraft Command Language) [1], a COTS spacecraft programming language developed for sale to the military [2]; SCL is based on the syntax of Ada 83, which has a long legacy in spaceflight and other real-time applications (e.g. Boeing 777) [3]. However, what are known as Fl…

Very interesting. I didn't think C would be used that much (except for the core of the os of course). I somehow thought of either a specialized language with strong guarantees (such as ADA), or a high level language for IA-like feature. Which makes me wonder, since this is HN after all, if Rust wouldn't be an ideal candidate for coding this kind of layer in the future. Maybe a compiler targeting VxWorks is in progres…

Anything even remotely new is usually not a candidate for these types of long duration missions. Part of it is institutional inertia, but also partly a desire to use a technology stack that will still be in use decades from now. Even for missions that only take a few years, some of the same people will work on those missions as well as decade plus missions, so you have to hire people who are experts in mature technologies. Institutions like NASA and ESA want to work with a technology stack that will remain stable and which they know will be maintainable by people in the future.

C and languages that compile to C (Fortran is used as well) are often employed since you have powerful control over memory usage.

Source: I work in the aviation industry, where the technologies are different but the lifecycle concerns are very similar.

Re: Philae has landed

#69
post #58

More analysis of @Philae2014 telemetry indicates harpoons did not fire as 1st thought Ouch, seems like it didn't land? https://twitter.com/esaoperations/status/532575061543485440 edit - the landing is confirmed, however the harpoons did not fire: https://twitter.com/ESA_Rosetta/status/532579871202238464

It did land, here's the next tweet: > It looks like @Philae2014 made a fairly gentle touch down on #67P based on amount of landing gear damping #CometLanding but the harpoons may have failed to fire.

Why does it need to anchor itself? It's not like it will blow away?

Re: Philae has landed

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It did land, here's the next tweet: > It looks like @Philae2014 made a fairly gentle touch down on #67P based on amount of landing gear damping #CometLanding but the harpoons may have failed to fire.

Why does it need to anchor itself? It's not like it will blow away?

Newton’s Second (edit: Third) Law. It wants to extend a drill bit into the surface.
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