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Nicholas Carr’s 'Glass Cage': Automation Will Hurt Society in Long Run

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Re: Nicholas Carr’s 'Glass Cage': Automation Will Hurt Society in Long Run

#11

Post by michaelt »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #8
JasonFruit wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it's sensationally worded. That's true any time we take an action that may have unintended consequences, and what that action is — whether it's releasing a robot vacuum cleaner, striking a log with an axe, or writing a book with potentially dangerous ideas — is irrelevant. My point is that smart people say dumb things when recent technology is involved.

The idea is, we've not had robots to do our killing for us in the past. This is something new. You can kill (bugs in this case) without being present or even knowing its happening. Worth an article I think.

  The idea is, we've not had robots to do our
  killing for us in the past.
A bit of trivia I picked up in a robotics class: Most of the common definitions of 'robot' include cruise missiles, which we've had since the 1970s at least.

Re: Nicholas Carr’s 'Glass Cage': Automation Will Hurt Society in Long Run

#12

Post by [deleted] »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #5
JasonFruit wrote: post #3

The moral decision is made by the person who released on their floor a semi-autonomous machine that cannot make moral choices. Calling this "robot morality" is idiotic, akin to saying that because an ax will indifferently cut a log or a human neck, it decides that cutting one is morally equivalent to the other.

That was actually the article's point - by releasing this robot of death, you cede moral authority to it. Or by your reckoning, you make the decision to kill; the robot just disguises that fact.

[deleted]

Re: Nicholas Carr’s 'Glass Cage': Automation Will Hurt Society in Long Run

#13

Post by JasonFruit »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #8
JasonFruit wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it's sensationally worded. That's true any time we take an action that may have unintended consequences, and what that action is — whether it's releasing a robot vacuum cleaner, striking a log with an axe, or writing a book with potentially dangerous ideas — is irrelevant. My point is that smart people say dumb things when recent technology is involved.

The idea is, we've not had robots to do our killing for us in the past. This is something new. You can kill (bugs in this case) without being present or even knowing its happening. Worth an article I think.

Setting out poison, traps, or mines, as we've done for centuries, is pretty similar; it's meant to kill in our absence, and can easily go wrong.

Re: Nicholas Carr’s 'Glass Cage': Automation Will Hurt Society in Long Run

#14

Post by thinkling »

JasonFruit wrote: post #3

The moral decision is made by the person who released on their floor a semi-autonomous machine that cannot make moral choices. Calling this "robot morality" is idiotic, akin to saying that because an ax will indifferently cut a log or a human neck, it decides that cutting one is morally equivalent to the other.

> We’re going to have to figure out how to give machines moral codes even if it’s not something we want to think about.

The author of the linked article may want to read some Asimov.

Re: Nicholas Carr’s 'Glass Cage': Automation Will Hurt Society in Long Run

#17

Post by Igglyboo »

JasonFruit wrote: post #3

The moral decision is made by the person who released on their floor a semi-autonomous machine that cannot make moral choices. Calling this "robot morality" is idiotic, akin to saying that because an ax will indifferently cut a log or a human neck, it decides that cutting one is morally equivalent to the other.

"Guns don't kill people, people with guns kill people"

Re: Nicholas Carr’s 'Glass Cage': Automation Will Hurt Society in Long Run

#18

Post by thisGuysAccount »

m3rc wrote: post #6
JasonFruit wrote: post #3

The moral decision is made by the person who released on their floor a semi-autonomous machine that cannot make moral choices. Calling this "robot morality" is idiotic, akin to saying that because an ax will indifferently cut a log or a human neck, it decides that cutting one is morally equivalent to the other.

Seriously, the roomba doesn't make a judgment about the insect because the roomba isn't making judgments about ANYTHING, it's just an extension of a human's choices, it just happens at a delay from when the human initially sets it up. This is as much a question of morality, as saying that a vending machine that crushes an insect in its inner workings is a question of robot morality.

It's a question of morality in a philosophical sense, not as an application of science or engineering.

The roomba is capable of killing. Whether the operator is aware of this or not, when they use the roomba to clean their floor, they're ceding their moral agency to the device and to its creators.

The logic can be abstracted from the roomba to any other device. This creates the need for device operators, whatever the device, to examine the potential outcomes of device operation and potential assumptions and motivations of the device's creators.

Failure to examine the assumptions and motivations is the same as ceding moral agency, deciding not to decide and throwing hands in the air and saying "well, didn't see that coming" when the creator's assumptions and motivations play out in a way contrary to the operator's morality.

So, yeah, it's about a roomba killing a bug, or a vending machine spilling a soda. It's also about a facial recognition device not noticing a black guy on a black background, or a drone killing a dog because it's barking aggressively.

Re: Nicholas Carr’s 'Glass Cage': Automation Will Hurt Society in Long Run

#19

Post by pi-rat »

A friend's Roomba committed suicide. He got home one day, and the apartment was filled with steam. Walked into the bathroom, shower was on, with the Roomba just sitting there getting soaked. It had managed to pull the hose while hoovering, and the hose yanked the valve handle.

Re: Nicholas Carr’s 'Glass Cage': Automation Will Hurt Society in Long Run

#20

Post by hawkice »

JasonFruit wrote: post #7
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was actually the article's point - by releasing this robot of death, you cede moral authority to it. Or by your reckoning, you make the decision to kill; the robot just disguises that fact.

But it's sensationally worded. That's true any time we take an action that may have unintended consequences, and what that action is — whether it's releasing a robot vacuum cleaner, striking a log with an axe, or writing a book with potentially dangerous ideas — is irrelevant. My point is that smart people say dumb things when recent technology is involved.

Sensationally worded?!? You're saying there's a chance the headline "When Roombas Kill" could have even a single trait in common with linkbait? Outrageous!
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