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All Dressed Up for Mars and Nowhere to Go

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Re: All Dressed Up for Mars and Nowhere to Go

#21
post #10

The point about the overabundance of oxygen (from the plants) that would require venting, but limited nitrogen, which would ultimately result in suffocation is one of those great little details that you don't normally think about when you think about living on other planets. There is so much we take for granted living day to day on a planet that we've evolved in concert with, that it's easy to overlook the little (an…

This problem has been solved, and machines capable of separating gasses exist all over the world; they are commonly used in hospitals to provide oxygen to patients, and for various other purposes.[1]

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_separation

Re: All Dressed Up for Mars and Nowhere to Go

#22
post #4

Well written article! As much as I would like to but I think it will probably never happen in the near future. Not because of technical reasons as some people state in the article. In my opinion the technical difficulties are not the most difficult things to solve in order to travel to Mars. Humanity went basically from 0 to space and on the Moon but this was only possible because of the political pressure where ever…

I agree. Barring some economic windfall that hasn't yet been discovered, it will require a national (world?) crisis and a Manhattan/Apollo project for a project on this scale. And the $6B pricetag is ludicrous. To put this in context, the state of California estimates the cost of high-speed rail from SF to LA at ~$50B.

Yeah fine, and everyone at SpaceX DEVELOPED the rockets that take people to SPACE for the same as what Facebook paid for Snapchat. Valuations are WEIRD.

Further the $50B price tag has a lot to do with paying a LOT of union folks, legalized "corruption" in many forms and the like. Finding huge cost savings in the construction industry is possible if you're motivated but nobody is because big infrastructure projects like that get handed out more based on politics than merit.

Re: All Dressed Up for Mars and Nowhere to Go

#24

"Gravity on Mars is only 38% that of Earth’s. What this would mean for the long-term health of colonists on Mars is not known" I think this fact is often overlooked. The problem of gravity (and radiation) are probably harder to overcome than food and oxygen.

This kind of argument was made early and often in the late 1950s, with respect to zero gravity, and it proved to be fear-mongering. Without evidence for this sort of proposition, it is simply pessimistic speculation.

This piece was not well researched, please do not invest too much credence in it.

Re: All Dressed Up for Mars and Nowhere to Go

#25
post #24

"Gravity on Mars is only 38% that of Earth’s. What this would mean for the long-term health of colonists on Mars is not known" I think this fact is often overlooked. The problem of gravity (and radiation) are probably harder to overcome than food and oxygen.

This kind of argument was made early and often in the late 1950s, with respect to zero gravity, and it proved to be fear-mongering. Without evidence for this sort of proposition, it is simply pessimistic speculation. This piece was not well researched, please do not invest too much credence in it.

To this day astronauts need to spend good amounts of time exercising during long stints in zero-g aboard ISS to avoid significant bone loss. Of course, maybe if you never leave Mars, you would be just fine with the bone density/strength you have.

Re: All Dressed Up for Mars and Nowhere to Go

#26
This piece is quite an interesting read, as well as being well structured and well phrased. This makes it all the more unfortunate that the writer is obviously unfamiliar with the technologies which would be used, and the realities of aerospace projects; leading to a slew of errors.

Some of the errors include:

1) Separating oxygen from nitrogen is quite commonly done, and there are at least three distinct methods for doing it. The reference is to an amateurish analysis done by others who had not done any research. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pressure_swing_adsorption

2) It is quite well known that NASA distributes its contracts around the country, so as to increase political buy-in from governors, congressmen, and senators. In fact, the space shuttle was green-lit because Nixon had cancelled the national aerospace plane, and his administration had a meeting about how that would affect votes in key swing-states, and they decided that the shuttle would benefit his re-election effort. Sources are numerous including https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fo8v7juSgRw .

3) Vitamin D would be a problem from lack of sunlight, not vitamin A, and even then supplements and artificial lamps both provide viable long-term alternatives to sun-exposure.

4) Building a vehicle to carry sufficient fuel and supplies for the trip to Mars is not especially technically challenging, when compared to the design of an earth-entry vehicle. Earth orbit rendezvous allows for the assembly of massive (though expensive) space vehicles such as the ISS.

Re: All Dressed Up for Mars and Nowhere to Go

#27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. Barring some economic windfall that hasn't yet been discovered, it will require a national (world?) crisis and a Manhattan/Apollo project for a project on this scale. And the $6B pricetag is ludicrous. To put this in context, the state of California estimates the cost of high-speed rail from SF to LA at ~$50B.

Yeah fine, and everyone at SpaceX DEVELOPED the rockets that take people to SPACE for the same as what Facebook paid for Snapchat. Valuations are WEIRD. Further the $50B price tag has a lot to do with paying a LOT of union folks, legalized "corruption" in many forms and the like. Finding huge cost savings in the construction industry is possible if you're motivated but nobody is because big infrastructure projects li…

You mention paying union folks like it is a bad thing, in line with "legalized "corruption"".

Perhaps you should go work in a foundry, machine shop, or a mine for a while and then see how you feel about unions.

Re: All Dressed Up for Mars and Nowhere to Go

#28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. Barring some economic windfall that hasn't yet been discovered, it will require a national (world?) crisis and a Manhattan/Apollo project for a project on this scale. And the $6B pricetag is ludicrous. To put this in context, the state of California estimates the cost of high-speed rail from SF to LA at ~$50B.

Yeah fine, and everyone at SpaceX DEVELOPED the rockets that take people to SPACE for the same as what Facebook paid for Snapchat. Valuations are WEIRD. Further the $50B price tag has a lot to do with paying a LOT of union folks, legalized "corruption" in many forms and the like. Finding huge cost savings in the construction industry is possible if you're motivated but nobody is because big infrastructure projects li…

SpaceX benefited from a great many years of experience, technology, knowledge, and lessons learned in blood from NASA, which is priceless. Comparing SpaceX outlays to a corporate acquisition pricetag is a weak analogy, at best. NASA (federal taxes) provided roughly half of SpaceX's initial funding. Large fractions of their current contracts come from NASA. And of course plenty of SpaceX's engineers are ex-NASA employees.

As far as unions go, I will grant that wages are higher as a result of their existence. That's a feature, not a bug. I'm curious: just how much of that $50B pricetag do you imagine is due to unions and "corruption"? A ballpark figure from the website of your choice will be fine.

Re: All Dressed Up for Mars and Nowhere to Go

#29
post #25
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This kind of argument was made early and often in the late 1950s, with respect to zero gravity, and it proved to be fear-mongering. Without evidence for this sort of proposition, it is simply pessimistic speculation. This piece was not well researched, please do not invest too much credence in it.

To this day astronauts need to spend good amounts of time exercising during long stints in zero-g aboard ISS to avoid significant bone loss. Of course, maybe if you never leave Mars, you would be just fine with the bone density/strength you have.

Citing specific problems can be instructive, and I would agree that bone and muscle mass loss could prove very bad. My issue is with nebulous claims that 'anything could happen'.

I would add that the bone and muscle problems are very well known to just about everyone who has done as much as read a science fiction book. Heinlein went into the subject in detail in his 1966 novel "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", and more recent writers such as Kim Stanley Robinson have written about it too.

Re: All Dressed Up for Mars and Nowhere to Go

#30
post #4

Well written article! As much as I would like to but I think it will probably never happen in the near future. Not because of technical reasons as some people state in the article. In my opinion the technical difficulties are not the most difficult things to solve in order to travel to Mars. Humanity went basically from 0 to space and on the Moon but this was only possible because of the political pressure where ever…

I agree. Barring some economic windfall that hasn't yet been discovered, it will require a national (world?) crisis and a Manhattan/Apollo project for a project on this scale. And the $6B pricetag is ludicrous. To put this in context, the state of California estimates the cost of high-speed rail from SF to LA at ~$50B.

> To put this in context, the state of California estimates the cost of high-speed rail from SF to LA at ~$50B.

Mars One is pretty silly, but a significant portion of that $50B cost is because they need long, straight lines and as such will have to seize and reimburse a lot of very expensive real estate, isn't it?

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