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If money doesn't make you happy, you probably aren't spending it right (2010) [pdf]

wjh.harvard.edu

131–140 of 152 posts

Re: If money doesn't make you happy, you probably aren't spending it right (2010) [pdf]

#131

While I can see how principles 7 and 8 could help most people, they wouldn't work for me. Every purchase of an item I intended to use long term (2 years or more) was preceded by anywhere from days to weeks of research, reviews, and comparison shopping. It's a huge brain drain, but it was worth it. I now have 98% of all possessions I'd want, with the remaining 2% having not reached the right opportunity yet (I'm also…

Because you seem content with this path, may I ask how old you are, or at least how long you've been on this path? I'm also curious to hear examples of the 2% you mention.

I'm young but I try to have this same approach of taking the time to buy nice things which will last (furniture, kitchenware, camping gear), and tend to be a bit obsessive about ratings + reviews. I sometimes wonder if this is the "right" approach or if I would be happier buying cheaper crap and spending less time doing it. I do find strong intrinsic value when I'm confident I bought the thing which best fits my needs after doing hours/days of research.

Re: If money doesn't make you happy, you probably aren't spending it right (2010) [pdf]

#132
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a valid strategy to not sweat the individual purchases, but watch your bank account and track your overall burn rate, then adjust if necessary.

FWIW, about 5 months ago, my family started sweating the small things. It's changed our burn rate by ~25%, from disturbingly over income to comfortably under income. Looking back now, our happiness level is pretty much at the same point. We can't really tell what we we're missing, although I know there are things.

I wish I could vote this up more. So many folks I've talked to who have been 'losing ground' even though their family income was comfortably over $150K (in the bay area) and then done a walk through the 'little things' only to discover $30 - $40K of expenses in there.

Most often it seems that this came about where they reached a point where their income meant they didn't really need to 'save up' for things, which lead to a 'don't care' attitude which lead to spending money on things and experiences that were not expensive but not valuable.

Re: If money doesn't make you happy, you probably aren't spending it right (2010) [pdf]

#133
post #46

Try living in a medium size city in the Philippines. There are neighborhood stores here all over the place and they don't charge much more than you would have to pay by buying in bulk at a larger store. When I'm not shopping at a neighborhood store, I go to the local market. Each of these places are very bland. Basically just a bamboo or concrete house with the products hanging or stacked up in shelves. Often you jus…

Indeed. It's somewhat durable, too -- while I certainly experience a lot more luxury since I left Davao, I'm no longer comfortable with even LA-without-a-car level extravagance being treated lightly.

I think it's worth pointing out the mirror of your thoughts (which are completely correct -- if you haven't had cheap and simple options, there is a deep luxury to it): If you're going to buy nice things -- which are the only options in America, truly -- enjoy them.

Food and housing seem so obvious to me. Like, you can get a chicken sandwich here, and eat something that is recognizably made of chicken (you can in the Philippines too, it's just that's more fancy than normal). I guess it never struck me how much of a luxury even the low-end of American foodstuffs are.

And I can get an apartment near Detroit that (1) can be air-conditioned to exactly the temperature I want, and not just a tolerable temperature, and (2) is, well... nice. Not falling apart, no holes in walls or things, consistent electricity, internet speeds exceeding 100kb/s (often by 30x).

Now, I don't need all this luxury, but man, the modest increase in expenses (maybe 2x? I live pretty cheap in America) definitely increases quality of life. If it didn't, I would probably not live here.

Re: If money doesn't make you happy, you probably aren't spending it right (2010) [pdf]

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the discussion was assuming you didn't have someone taking care of your material needs for you, like a monastery or a parent.

I know people who have lived off the grid (or on a boat), without a paying job, happily. It does get wearing, and people don't seem to do it for too long - but that can be years. (To give some examples of lifestyles that do not require income, nor external people paying for things.)

Definitely true. I think the parent was overstating it saying that one would be miserable without money.

But the larger point stands, your state of mind and your access to resources are connected, very strongly at the poverty end. There are definitely people who can be very fulfilled with very few resources (until they get sick or it gets very cold) but they would all be happier with a bunch of money, even if that's just to give away to those in need.

Re: If money doesn't make you happy, you probably aren't spending it right (2010) [pdf]

#135

I used to have money. When I got divorced I decided I would let my wife have it all. It was mostly hers to begin with, so it wasn't some great act of generosity. She walked away with somewhere around $2MM in liquidity. I walked away with about $10,000. It's really made very little difference. Money makes some things easier, but I wouldn't associate that with happy. They are two separate things. There was a time when…

I saw a good TED talk[1] a while ago about this topic, and the speaker made the interesting point that people use the word happiness to mean different things. You can ask someone how happy they are feeling at a given moment, or you can ask them how happy they are with their life in general. And we evaluate those two feelings in very different ways.

He mentions at one point that studies about how people feel in the moment were very correlated with money, but only up to the point that they didn't need to worry about it anymore. After that, it had little bearing on their experiential happiness. But when asked how happy they were with their lives, the more money, the better, with no limit. Which seems to me more like pride in an achievement.

I wonder if the happiness that wasn't "your own" was because part of you was happy when you thought about where you were in life, but you were also aware it wasn't really improving your day-to-day experience. Kind of a cognitive dissonance between the two ways you were evaluating your happiness.

I don't know, you think that's even close?

[1] http://www.ted.com/talks/daniel_kahneman_the_riddle_of_exper...

Re: If money doesn't make you happy, you probably aren't spending it right (2010) [pdf]

#136

Money is the most tricky thing men will ever face. Not talking about extreme poverty here, the following is what I've learned: More money leads in almost all people to artificial value, short term superficial happiness, degradation of the soul. On the outside it looks great and shiny, but on the inside the soul starves and craves true happiness. Unfortunately, most rich people react unconsciously by spending more and…

>More money leads in almost all people to artificial value, short term superficial happiness, degradation of the soul. >Longer term less money creates in almost all people higher valuation of the most simple and basic things, which translates to true happiness for the soul. Having been dead broke, severely underemployed while freelancing, and in a position where I would have been homeless were it not for my amazing g…

You seem to have missed the the clarification in the beginning of the post: "Not talking about extreme poverty here"

Re: If money doesn't make you happy, you probably aren't spending it right (2010) [pdf]

#137

I used to have money. When I got divorced I decided I would let my wife have it all. It was mostly hers to begin with, so it wasn't some great act of generosity. She walked away with somewhere around $2MM in liquidity. I walked away with about $10,000. It's really made very little difference. Money makes some things easier, but I wouldn't associate that with happy. They are two separate things. There was a time when…

I saw a good TED talk[1] a while ago about this topic, and the speaker made the interesting point that people use the word happiness to mean different things. You can ask someone how happy they are feeling at a given moment, or you can ask them how happy they are with their life in general. And we evaluate those two feelings in very different ways. He mentions at one point that studies about how people feel in the mo…

That's somewhat accurate. I'd not seen this TED talk either, so thanks.

The day-to-day didn't really change above a certain income, and that income limit (at least for me) was pretty low. Even living in both Manhattan and San Francisco where things are expensive.

All the things I enjoy aren't really that expensive. You don't need millions of dollars to read a book, watch a movie, listen to an album, or have sex. These things are only very marginally improved above let's say, the $75K mark. You don't even need millions of dollars to go out to eat every night.

Money can give you more discretionary time. But that free time can't be spent in any way (at least none that I found) that feels rewarding while everyone else you know or care about is at work. You are still bound to rest of the world. I think that's what I like about more European, or day I say socialist, lifestyles. I need other people to spend time with. I've found hanging out with extremely wealthy people who don't do anything to be extremely boring and almost uncomfortable.

If I woke up tomorrow and suddenly had $10 million I'm not sure I'd be any happier. I'd go out and buy some new clothes I guess, a bigger apartment maybe. I'd still wake up in the morning and turn on the radio to listen to NPR. I'd still eat the same yogurt, same strawberries.

People start to do silly things with money I don't understand. Giant TVs they don't know how to work, fancy cars they never drive. Or buy some house with rooms that sit empty. I'm just like, why? Why would you do that? When people say these things make them "happy" I wonder if we actually feel completely different emotions.

Re: If money doesn't make you happy, you probably aren't spending it right (2010) [pdf]

#138
post #2

I was happiest 15 years ago working as a raft guide and traveling the world. I had very little money then, but I was very happy. I got to do what I loved every day. I usually made two large purchases per year (the opposite of what this article suggests) - a kayak and a return ticket to my next destination. I now sit in front of a computer. Earn OK money but not enough to retire on anytime soon (I am in Spain just now…

We were all happier in our youth. Not a lot to do with money or position; had to do with being in your 20's?

If you're not getting progressively happier with your life under fairly normal circumstances, you're doing it wrong.

Seriously; unless there is something that has fucked your life so badly, you should have been spending your time thinking, reflecting and experiencing what makes your happy and more satisfied, and trying to pierce through the bullshit of society's expectations versus your own needs and wants.

No one is exempt from the tragedies of life, but there's not excuse for not being mindful of what enriches your soul.

Re: If money doesn't make you happy, you probably aren't spending it right (2010) [pdf]

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a really interesting way to look at it. I think you're right, thanks for including that piece of insight. To continue - Having more RAM also makes you more likely to run programs you don't need, or don't care about. Limiting the RAM left available for the applications you do. It's easier to kill processes though than drains on your income.

How do you know what programs you need to run? Why would we think all the good ones are low-RAM? I'd need to see a profile of apps and RAM to even begin to conclude anything. Either the analogy isn't working, or more money (or RAM) has a good chance of letting me do more things that I value. I think the 2nd.

> How do you know what programs you need to run? Why would we think all the good ones are low-RAM? I'd need to see a profile of apps and RAM to even begin to conclude anything.

Wisdom, aging, getting to know yourself. I sure love a $300 meal, but eating out 5 times a week isn't going to make me any happier than going to that place once a month and cooking on my own the rest of the time; maybe ordering a cheap dish at my favorite Chinese place.

If you enjoy looking good and your wardrobe already has everything you could reasonably wear on a day-to-day basis and some special events, the chances that an additional piece of clothing will make a marked difference on your happiness is extremely low.

If you have sex with your lover as much as you could possibly want, more sex will not increase your quality of life; most likely it will be a negative.

There's a point where we just saturate on the hedonistic aspects of life, even the ones with supposed higher purposes.

Re: If money doesn't make you happy, you probably aren't spending it right (2010) [pdf]

#140

While I can see how principles 7 and 8 could help most people, they wouldn't work for me. Every purchase of an item I intended to use long term (2 years or more) was preceded by anywhere from days to weeks of research, reviews, and comparison shopping. It's a huge brain drain, but it was worth it. I now have 98% of all possessions I'd want, with the remaining 2% having not reached the right opportunity yet (I'm also…

Because you seem content with this path, may I ask how old you are, or at least how long you've been on this path? I'm also curious to hear examples of the 2% you mention. I'm young but I try to have this same approach of taking the time to buy nice things which will last (furniture, kitchenware, camping gear), and tend to be a bit obsessive about ratings + reviews. I sometimes wonder if this is the "right" approach…

Believe me, having durable goods is one of the few material things that have brought me lasting happiness (or at least made me avoid chronic unhappiness).

It really depends on the class of goods. I enjoy high-quality audio, so I made the effort to do some research and spent decent money on a good sound card and two high-end headphones. End of story; it's unlikely that I'll need a replacement for those things for a decade. Thankfully there are tons of good products in the area and it makes little sense to sweat it once you're found a dozen good choices.

As far as furniture goes; it really depends on how obsessive you are on design and interior decoration. There's a healthy compromise to strike between utility, cost, and aesthetics, and my experience is that once you have a solid idea for your interior decoration (which is not easy, mind you) you're probably good to go; minor blemished and defects should not detract from your satisfaction.

In kitchenware, solid and cheap is a good combination. Apart from knives, the most important thing is build quality, but a cheap cast-iron pan is good as long as you're not burning stuff.

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