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OpenBazaar is a decentralized Dark Net market that's 'untouchable' by police

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Re: OpenBazaar is a decentralized Dark Net market that's 'untouchable' by police

#101

Post by Fjolsvith »

adekok wrote: post #89
Touche wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does a distributed marketplace intended for legal trade need to run on Tor? Do you need anonymity if you're selling towels?

> Do you need anonymity if you're selling towels? Yes. When I sell towels, I put my business reputation on the line. Not my personal one. The customers don't know my real name. Tell me this. When was the last time you knew the full name of a store clerk you interacted with? The name tag might say "Sally", but is it really "Sally"? Or is it "Sally Smith" or "Sally Jones" ? You don't know, and you don't care. All you k…

It could have been "Fred".

Re: OpenBazaar is a decentralized Dark Net market that's 'untouchable' by police

#102

Post by musername »

csandreasen wrote: post #100
pyre wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The argument is never "I've got nothing to hide", the argument is that I have no reason to hide my Amazon purchases from Amazon. The argument most definitely is "you've got nothing to hide." This argument is bandied about a lot. With some sort of idea that your entire life should be laid bare before the whims of law enforcement/signals intelligence agencies. The idea always comes with the assumptions that: - If you…

I'm going to take a karma hit for this one, I think... Well, the conversation has apparently gone from asking why someone needs total anonymity when conducting completely legal activity online to protecting oneself from signals intelligence agencies. I have a vested interest in protecting my sensitive information online from identity thieves, scammers, people who would want to rob or injure me and people making argum…

so, you don't believe that it's a fragile system, before you saw it break?

Re: OpenBazaar is a decentralized Dark Net market that's 'untouchable' by police

#103

Post by s_q_b »

arthurcolle wrote: post #98
s_q_b wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uhm no. Wasn't that the entire point of my comment?

I read it more along the lines of "some folks and I have come up with a reasonable solution, but it's nowhere near production ready so no one would want to test it." My bad

Ah, I see now. My apologies.

Re: OpenBazaar is a decentralized Dark Net market that's 'untouchable' by police

#104

Post by csandreasen »

musername wrote: post #102
csandreasen wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to take a karma hit for this one, I think... Well, the conversation has apparently gone from asking why someone needs total anonymity when conducting completely legal activity online to protecting oneself from signals intelligence agencies. I have a vested interest in protecting my sensitive information online from identity thieves, scammers, people who would want to rob or injure me and people making argum…

so, you don't believe that it's a fragile system, before you saw it break?

I've followed the reporting that Greenwald, Poitras, Gellman et al. have put out fairly closely, but I've also watched the debates, watched several of the Congressional hearings, read both of the PCLOB reports, quite a few of the declassified documents, etc. The conclusion I've come to is that talking about nuances in surveillance law doesn't bring in advertising dollars, but you can't go wrong by stirring up hysteria talking about all of the things the NSA could technically do without showing evidence of them actually doing it. This is the Ebola scare of the tech community.

So to answer your question, I believe it's an ugly system with a lot of warts, but I have yet to see it break.

Re: OpenBazaar is a decentralized Dark Net market that's 'untouchable' by police

#105

Post by slaman »

Jukelox wrote: post #28
Touche wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can question what terrorism is when you're in the grey area. But some things are just black/white terrorism, like the Boston Marathon bombing.

The Boston Marathon bombing was a terrible tragedy. They purchased their supplies from regular retail outlets, not a unregulated internet market. [1] Which goes back to my original point. Linking terrorism to OpenBazaar is a far stretch and is rooted in fear, not data. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Marathon_bombings

It will always be possible to cause harm with legal objects, unless they ban fists and teeth.

While I think linking terrorism is a stretch, there are benefits to regulating the sale of things designed specifically to cause death, automatic firearms, high capacity magazines, warheads...

Re: OpenBazaar is a decentralized Dark Net market that's 'untouchable' by police

#106

Post by superuser2 »

killerpopiller wrote: post #45
rayiner wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is protecting you from yourself. They're trying to protect other people from the damage you can do as an addict, a child pornographer, or a terrorist.

you are right, but child porn and addicts are already in the world. You fear addicts for good reasons. But if one looks how countries which legalized drugs are doing, you will see that violence, crime and number of addicts are decreasing. e.g. Portugal: - Drug use among adolescents (13-15 yrs) and "problematic" users declined.[15] - Drug-related criminal justice workloads decreased.[15] - Decreased street value of mo…

Child porn prohibition is not about consumers. It is about increasing the risk on (and taking the market away from) producers, who are necessarily actually abusing real children (who are not the producers themselves) in the real world in an unambiguously horrific way, with the end result that less child abuse happens.

You will have to try pretty hard to spin that into being the same thing as drug prohibition.

Arguments are, of course, less strong for convicting 16/17-year-olds of child porn for sexting, and even for removing images that were produced long ago.

Re: OpenBazaar is a decentralized Dark Net market that's 'untouchable' by police

#107

Post by superuser2 »

adekok wrote: post #89
Touche wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does a distributed marketplace intended for legal trade need to run on Tor? Do you need anonymity if you're selling towels?

> Do you need anonymity if you're selling towels? Yes. When I sell towels, I put my business reputation on the line. Not my personal one. The customers don't know my real name. Tell me this. When was the last time you knew the full name of a store clerk you interacted with? The name tag might say "Sally", but is it really "Sally"? Or is it "Sally Smith" or "Sally Jones" ? You don't know, and you don't care. All you k…

If that store harms me in some way, then I can come back with the cops, serve it with a lawsuit, or complain in a public forum.

In any case, the store is "stuck" with its identity and the employees involved will not only be fully identified, they might even go to prison. Or, at the very least, customers will know not to shop there and the store will have a very hard/expensive time starting with a clean slate reputation.

Stores are semi-anonymous for employees, but their enclosing corporations have Registered Agent addresses on file to receive (enforceable) process.

I lose all consumer protection by using something OpenBazaar.

Re: OpenBazaar is a decentralized Dark Net market that's 'untouchable' by police

#108

Post by peteretep »

adekok wrote: post #89
Touche wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does a distributed marketplace intended for legal trade need to run on Tor? Do you need anonymity if you're selling towels?

> Do you need anonymity if you're selling towels? Yes. When I sell towels, I put my business reputation on the line. Not my personal one. The customers don't know my real name. Tell me this. When was the last time you knew the full name of a store clerk you interacted with? The name tag might say "Sally", but is it really "Sally"? Or is it "Sally Smith" or "Sally Jones" ? You don't know, and you don't care. All you k…

    > Yes. When I sell towels, I put my business reputation on
    > the line. Not my personal one
lolwut? If you're the cashier, yes, you get a little bit of implied anonymity.

If you're the business owner, absolutely and categorically not. Firstly, in every sensible country you are required to prominently display and let customers know the name of the legal entity with whom they're dealing. Secondly, in almost every sensible country, the owners of a business and the directors of a business are public record.

I have no clue at all why you think "store clerks" have any relevance to this discussion at all.

Re: OpenBazaar is a decentralized Dark Net market that's 'untouchable' by police

#109

Post by peteretep »

dionyziz wrote: post #35
Touche wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does a distributed marketplace intended for legal trade need to run on Tor? Do you need anonymity if you're selling towels?

OpenBazaar developer here. This is the "nothing to hide" argument that we've seen used to much by the NSA and governments. The answer is that we believe people simply have the right to privacy in trade. Here's a discussion by the OpenBazaar team on the matter: https://github.com/OpenBazaar/OpenBazaar/issues/189 Do you want your credit card company to know exactly where you've shopped for the past two years? Would you…

    > The answer is that we believe people simply have the 
    > right to privacy in trade
That's nice and all, but then all your examples are anonymity in PURCHASE, where OpenBazaar primarily appeals to people who need anonymity in SALE.

People who ignore the massive body of work that is Common Law, and the safeguards it provides are doomed to repeat them. Common Law wasn't dreamed up by some idiot politicians, it's the result of hundreds of years worth of "how do we protect the public?".

Which is why you'll find that it's 100% legal to purchase items with cash, under an assumed name, with a mask on, through an intermediary, or whatever the hell else you want, but it's generally illegal to sell anonymously because "caveat emptor" just doesn't cut it.

So come on, let's get some examples of legal goods for sale where there is any significant benefit in the seller having anonymity...?

Re: OpenBazaar is a decentralized Dark Net market that's 'untouchable' by police

#110

Post by peteretep »

jasode wrote: post #17

I see several comments questioning the legitimate value of a peer-to-peer marketplace. Some cannot see any use other than illegal commerce (drugs, porn, etc). It is true that such illicit trades will take advantage of that network but is it really impossible to envision legal business as the major activity? Yes, cars can be used as getaway vehicles from bank robberies and also smash terrorist bombs into government bu…

    > I see several comments questioning the legitimate value
    > of a peer-to-peer marketplace.
No, you see comments questioning the legitimate value of an anonymous or pseudonymous peer-to-peer marketplace.

Also, you misunderstand what eBay provides: eBay provides marketing and payment handling. That's what their margin is for. You are entirely welcome - today - to set up a webpage, list your wares, and accept Bitcoin for them. The problem is that there's little centralized reputation management there, and also, no-one is ever going to find your stuff. Unless a p2p marketplace is solving those needs, what benefit does it provide over nginx + a bitcoin wallet?

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