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FBI takes down over 400 .onion sites

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Re: FBI takes down over 400 .onion sites

#31
Some here may know me as a critic of overreaching and aggressive cyber enforcement (and related surveillance).

First, I'm quite happy that this activity does not appear to be the result of wide scale infrastructure sabotage.

And I am quite happy that the FBI is doing its job to combat crime that is facilitated using (abusing) the technologies that are bastions for free speech, privacy and whistleblowing.

Of course the flipside is that this means that there are capabilities in place to disrupt anonymizing technologies - the technologies make investigation more expensive but ultimately are merely an inconvenience to the powers that be. So when it comes down to it, anonymizing services and Tor can't be trusted to secure you if you have something to say where your life is in danger.

The FBI (/others) wants the court system to replace technology as the gatekeeper to investigation. The court system, however, is brittle. It takes time, it fails, and it responds to external pressure - there are repeated studies that show that the length of time persons in US court systems are convicted to serve is highly correlated with how long it has been since the precising judge has eaten his last meal. There are also extralegal rights that law enforcement are given by legislature and evolving interpretations of what both these legal and extralegal rights entail.

But law enforcement also is justified from their perspective. They don't want there to be criminals that get away with crimes simply because criminals load up some software that obfuscate their identities, locations and accounts. If you look at this published list there are criminal organizations that you and I as taxpayers do want taken down. (I recognize that the sale and consumption of drugs is a greyer area of morality as drug use is sometimes victimless).

I think that for the most part law enforcement is capable of taking down these services and organizations other ways - ordering assault rifles and monitoring the drops - and that this provides opportunities for the government to enforce the law without sabotaging communications infrastructure. Taking down some .onion addresses doesn't do too much besides annoy the services for a time anyway unless the services operationally are not capable of standing up a new address and communicating with customers anonymously.

All in all it's a blurry line but I feel safer with places that are anonymous and secure than I do by trusting a court system and legal process that can only see, process, and be accountable for so much.

Re: FBI takes down over 400 .onion sites

#32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In response to negativity around the drug war, I'd say that for the first time in a long time we should be very optimistic about the future of legalization in the United States. Washington, Oregon, Alaska, Colorado, and D.C. now have full legalization in legislation. Florida got nearly 58% on medical marijuana vote that unfortunately needed 60%. 23 states have legalized medical marijuana. (Up to date map: https://loc…

I think the term "legalization" needs to be qualified. The situation is moving towards extremely limited government-controlled privatization. Citizens can buy recreational pot in an approved store but it's still illegal to grow a single plant in your own back yard. I'm almost positive someone will be absolutely indignant at my temerity for suggesting the above, but it's worth thinking about what real legalization wou…

It'll never be like growing tomatoes. It'll probably end up like alcohol. You can't distill at home either. Well, you can, but it's illegal.

Re: FBI takes down over 400 .onion sites

#33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In response to negativity around the drug war, I'd say that for the first time in a long time we should be very optimistic about the future of legalization in the United States. Washington, Oregon, Alaska, Colorado, and D.C. now have full legalization in legislation. Florida got nearly 58% on medical marijuana vote that unfortunately needed 60%. 23 states have legalized medical marijuana. (Up to date map: https://loc…

I think the term "legalization" needs to be qualified. The situation is moving towards extremely limited government-controlled privatization. Citizens can buy recreational pot in an approved store but it's still illegal to grow a single plant in your own back yard. I'm almost positive someone will be absolutely indignant at my temerity for suggesting the above, but it's worth thinking about what real legalization wou…

> Citizens can buy recreational pot in an approved store but it's still illegal to grow a single plant in your own back yard.

One of the primary selling points of legalization was to increase state revenue. This is how the state collects. Personally, I'm not at all bothered by this.

Re: FBI takes down over 400 .onion sites

#34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every time something like this happens, lots of people shout that the sky is falling and Tor is "dead." Thank you for putting forward a reasonable hypothesis amid the FUD. That being said, I doubt he was a developer for 399 other sites, thats quite a few. I think a "watering hole" style attack is likely here, but I think there must be a part of the story that hasn't been revealed; perhaps there was a federation of .o…

He sold cookie cutter stores that vendors bought and wouldn't take long to que up puppet and deploy a .onion for the hundreds of vendors on SR2. I wouldn't give Tor a green light either though, esp with people considering peddling narcotics using that p2p alpha market software Open Market where you run your own server. Seems incredibly risky for timing analysis plus nobody knows how they discovered SR #1.

So basically the shopify of .onion?

Re: FBI takes down over 400 .onion sites

#35
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the term "legalization" needs to be qualified. The situation is moving towards extremely limited government-controlled privatization. Citizens can buy recreational pot in an approved store but it's still illegal to grow a single plant in your own back yard. I'm almost positive someone will be absolutely indignant at my temerity for suggesting the above, but it's worth thinking about what real legalization wou…

It'll never be like growing tomatoes. It'll probably end up like alcohol. You can't distill at home either. Well, you can, but it's illegal.

It's actually legal to brew alcohol for personal use. No selling, however.

Re: FBI takes down over 400 .onion sites

#36
I wish the FBI would spend its time going after actual crimes- like the ones where people's money are stolen-- rather than political crimes.

But that they aren't is proof positive to me that the government does not operate for the benefit of the people, but for the benefit of itself.

Re: FBI takes down over 400 .onion sites

#37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As little as 50 years ago, putting lead in gasoline was legal. Look how far we've come. As little as 20 years ago, spraying your crops with DDT wasn't illegal. Look how far we've come. As little as 5 years ago, selling furniture treated with brominated flame retardants wasn't illegal in the EU. Look how far we've come. We are wrong about chemicals all the time. The regulatory status of chemical X fifty years ago rare…

The responsible use of drugs for your own use doesn't affect anyone except yourself. The chemical uses you brought up affects more than just yourself.

Except the issue is that many drugs affect your ability to be responsible.

If people could take heroin or ice and (a) stop whenever they wanted and (b) still function as society expects then nobody would have an issue with them being legal. But drugs like those effectively rewire the brain and are incredibly destructive. A significant amount of domestic violence, child abuse, family breakdown incidents are directly attributable to drugs. You can't blame society for not wanting drugs like those to be readily accessible.

Re: FBI takes down over 400 .onion sites

#38
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It'll never be like growing tomatoes. It'll probably end up like alcohol. You can't distill at home either. Well, you can, but it's illegal.

It's actually legal to brew alcohol for personal use. No selling, however.

The parent specifically referred to distilling (making spirits) at home, which is in fact illegal in the US without a license. Laws vary in other countries, though this seems pretty common (with the exception of NZ, apparently).

http://www.ttb.gov/spirits/faq.shtml

This is different from brewing beer, cider and winemaking, which are quite differently regulated.

Re: FBI takes down over 400 .onion sites

#39
post #31

Some here may know me as a critic of overreaching and aggressive cyber enforcement (and related surveillance). First, I'm quite happy that this activity does not appear to be the result of wide scale infrastructure sabotage. And I am quite happy that the FBI is doing its job to combat crime that is facilitated using (abusing) the technologies that are bastions for free speech, privacy and whistleblowing. Of course th…

On the bright side it leaves us in the same position as man has always been- rather charted territory.

I've been skeptical of Tor et-al from day one. I didn't have provable reasons why, but the court has always served as the gatekeeper to investigation, and the Tors of the world seemed like the sort of hubris we techies are so prone to- "Age-old social justice problems man has struggled with for thousands of years can be trivially fixed with my technology!"

It is my opinion that we (techies) overestimate ourselves. Tor is useful, but it would have to be perfect (which no technology can be) to protect you from the flawed judicial system. Which is why I think we are destined for heartbreak, and the longer we forestall that realization the worse off we will be, for we will ignore the judicial system and allow it to become ever more broken.

As a sidenote I find it bitter satire; people who cannot accept the will of others seeking tools to forcefully impose their own morality on the world instead

Re: FBI takes down over 400 .onion sites

#40
post #24
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The government is allowed to gather evidence before it arrests people and tries them. You're jumping the gun a bit on the moral outrage.

Gathering evidence doesn't mean shutting a site down, let alone 400.

Are you serious ?

Selling drugs is illegal. Hence running a website to sell drugs is also illegal. Of course the government is going to shut down the website or any other sites where there is clear evidence of criminal behaviour. The criminal case against Blake et al over whether they ran the site is a separate issue.

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