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On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

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Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#371

Post by rakoo »

dllthomas wrote: post #336
rakoo wrote: post #44

> The answer clearly isn’t economic I beg to differ. I totally agree with the paradox (with the advances in technology, humans should be working less) but the problem, today, is economic: - In order to live you need money - In order to obtain money you need to work (except for the lucky too few) - Therefore, work needs to exist to provide people with money, to the point of creating "useless" jobs if needs be How are…

"The only answer is to decouple them, and introduce something like basic income" It should be noted that BI is a partial decoupling of revenue from work, not a full decoupling.

That's true, but when I said decoupling I meant "break the common misconception that one cannot happen without the other". It's more about breaking the idea than actually separating them. I don't think we can introduce Basic Income as a full income directly anyway, it will most certainly be gradual (start with e.g. a BI equal to the level of poverty, and go up from there)... but the most important part will be achieved: people will stop thinking that in order to live there is no other way but work, even in useless jobs.

Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#372

Post by thekingofspain »

narag wrote: post #159
VBprogrammer wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know what you're getting at, but I'd be reasonably confident in speculating that there is just as much slacking off on construction projects as any other employment. Some of it maybe genuinely waiting for something to happen (crane to move something, cement truck to arrive etc). I'm not sure whether you'd count that as slacking off but it's certainly not working.

I've done blue collar work (construction was one) without much slacking at all, stops just to light a cigarrette o drink a beer, but it was mostly a continuous stream of little tasks. It made sense to not rush but neither stop, so it 'flows': you're never to tired and keep "the engine" warm.

How are you allowed to drink beer on a construction site?

Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#373

Post by dragonwriter »

crdoconnor wrote: post #344
dragonwriter wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is so wrong with giving the unemployed a JOB rather than just money? If you give them basic income, then the jobs can pay what the jobs are worth, and no one needs to be forced into economically inefficient make-work jobs that take time that could be used for focussed training, risky (but potentially valuable) self-initiated ventures, etc. Any such make-work jobs proposal is obviously paying a premium over the…

>no one needs to be forced into economically inefficient make-work jobs So you are saying that the jobs building the Lincoln Tunnel in Manhattan and the Triborough bridge (among many other things under the PWA) were "economically inefficient make work jobs". Why?

> So you are saying that the jobs building the Lincoln Tunnel in Manhattan and the Triborough bridge (among many other things under the PWA) were "economically inefficient make work jobs".

No, I agree that it is an essential function of government (arguably, the only legitimate function of government) to correct for market failures by shifting incentives or directly purchasing goods and services so that exchanges which are a net benefit but which the market fails to provide because externalized costs or benefits are not taken into account naturally in market exchanges (as is the case, for instance, when benefits or costs are particularly diffuse in space or time or both). And many public works projects fit that bill, and when labor costs are low because of a dip in private market demand, more of those projects have a positive cost:benefit ratio.

OTOH, the social benefit from an income support is independent of its tie to employment, and therefore it makes sense for the income support to be decoupled from any public works program. Coupling the two creates inefficiency, as individuals receiving the income support are then compelled to devote time to an economically-inefficient job that could, instead, be devoted to economically efficient activities, including working at an economically-efficient job with a lower wage (that would be inadequate income for basic living on its own) than is provided by the government make-work job but which provides experience which enables the individual to progress to better paying jobs and greater contributions to society.

Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#374

Post by DarkIye »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #164
JulianMorrison wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate that particular joke because of how it so casually blames the victim. Awful jobs exist in the system and people are crammed into them by economic force.

B Ark jobs aren't awful jobs, though. A chinese woman once started talking to me in a bakery, saying she wanted to practice her english. She'd spent time in Australia and recently come back to China to look for a job. "What kind of job are you looking for?" I ask. "I want to get a job in an office." When "working in an office" is the height of your ambition, a B Ark job is as good as things get. If you're looking for…

Are you sure it was the "height of her ambition"? Sounds like she was primarily focused on practising her English and didn't mind too much about the work.

Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#375

Post by Shorel »

ams6110 wrote: post #86
jug6ernaut wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not going to deny anything you said, its almost 100% true. But I believe your missing an important "fact"(maybe). That is its not really physically/physiologically/mentally possible to put in 40 hours of true "work". Not consistently anyways. So as much as it is we not truly putting in 40 hours, its the entire effort to be available for 40 hours IMO that you are getting paid for.

It is possible and commonplace in jobs where you physically work. Construction, any of the trades, factory work, food service... if you work 40 hours you have actually worked very close to 40 hours. There isn't any real opportunity to slack off or stand around in those jobs. Office jobs, yeah. Many of those are bullshit jobs.

Yeah but physical work is kind of invigorating in its own way. It can be said we evolved for that.

On the other hand stuff like computer programming can be very exhausting if we don't add at least a bit of physical activity to the mix.

And employers in white collar industries perceive such added physical activity as slacking off.

Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#376

Post by Shorel »

tedks wrote: post #166
padobson wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whenever I walk through a Home Depot, I think "Man, the people that use this stuff are really MAKING things." Inevitably, my next thought is, "And a place like Home Depot could never operate without software making it work behind the scenes."

Home Depot existed long before software. It'll exist long after software, too. Remember that we live in a bubble.

I don't see software going away anytime soon.

It's like expecting writing and/or books to go away three thousand years ago.

Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#377

Post by narag »

thekingofspain wrote: post #372
narag wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've done blue collar work (construction was one) without much slacking at all, stops just to light a cigarrette o drink a beer, but it was mostly a continuous stream of little tasks. It made sense to not rush but neither stop, so it 'flows': you're never to tired and keep "the engine" warm.

How are you allowed to drink beer on a construction site?

It was a minor work: building a wall, over two or three days, in an individual's house. It was considered basic hospitality to offer some beverage to workers (sherry or beer) on top of the negotiated pay.

As the king you should know local customs, shouldn't you? ;-)

I wouldn't recommend including this kind of perk in the official builders guild code. But honestly, at that rate of physical activity with sudoration and deep breath, alcohol had little noticeable effect and for a very short time.

Also I was doing pawn work (not sure how to translate to English) that's very simple and not dangerous.

Edit: I did work for months delivering beer to bars and little shops with a truck. That was also very continuous work: you were either downloading beer cases or barrels from the truck, very physical work or driving or filling the invoices... to complete the route on time, you could stop very little. Of course nothing that could be called slacking and no alcohol. But mostly everybody got wasted Friday afternoons after work.

Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#378

Post by existencebox »

yodsanklai wrote: post #109
furyg3 wrote: post #48

While there's a lot to debate in the article, kudos to Graeber for talking about a taboo. White-collar employees 'work' (periods of focused concentration) a lot less than 40 hours. There are exceptions, and HNers may deny this fact (because the demographic is different or because the taboo is more powerful in this circle), but Graeber's inebriated cocktail party confessions match my own discussions with friends. Howe…

> Western culture really doesn't allow us to just show up for the 15-20 hours we really work and get paid the same salary as the 40 we say we do. There are exceptions. As an academic, I have that freedom. If I don't feel like working, I have no pressure to stay at my office. On the other hand, I often work during the evenings, weekends and vacation. I wonder how I would adjust if I had to switch to a regular job.

As someone who recently shifted from an academic, paper writing position to a bigCo job,

"Don't."

That's really all I can say. No matter how good you think it is, it will break your spirit, and if doing meaningful work at a reasonable pace is what's important for you, you (probably, there are always exceptions) won't get it in the corporate world.

EDIT: (I realize this is a very delayed response, but I've been mulling over this very issue for a few days now and it's something rather painfully close to home for me.)

Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#379

Post by parasubvert »

crdoconnor wrote: post #347
parasubvert wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really consider the work corporate lawyers do can be summed up by the plotlines to Hollywood movies like "A Civil Action" and "Erin Brockovich"? Because that's effectively what you've done in your reply. Fundamentally, lawyers exist because we no longer (generally) find it acceptable to challenge each other to duels, or send Vinnie and the boys to bust someone's kneecaps when we don't like what they're doing.…

You do realize that Erin Brockovich was based upon a true story right?

Of course. The point is that it's an absurd Hollywood-fed cliche to think that this represents all corporate lawyers and thus that they have no social value as a profession.

Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#380

Post by thaumasiotes »

DarkIye wrote: post #374
thaumasiotes wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

B Ark jobs aren't awful jobs, though. A chinese woman once started talking to me in a bakery, saying she wanted to practice her english. She'd spent time in Australia and recently come back to China to look for a job. "What kind of job are you looking for?" I ask. "I want to get a job in an office." When "working in an office" is the height of your ambition, a B Ark job is as good as things get. If you're looking for…

Are you sure it was the "height of her ambition"? Sounds like she was primarily focused on practising her English and didn't mind too much about the work.

From personal conversation (in Chinese) with another person:

> What do your parents do?

> They're normal people.

Or, from a Chinese girl's online dating profile:

> 爸爸是农民。妈妈是工人。 [My father's a farmer; my mother is an employee.]

The elevation of the concept "job in an office" isn't a problem with insufficient english; it's something Chinese people in China do while they're speaking Chinese. I've also seen a banner at 复旦大学 (generally considered the third best university in China) advertising a lecture on... becoming an "office gentleman" or "office lady" (those terms were in english, but the rest of the banner wasn't).

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