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Leaked Documents Expose Global Companies’ Secret Tax Deals in Luxembourg

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Re: Leaked Documents Expose Global Companies’ Secret Tax Deals in Luxembourg

#61
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Taxation without representation is pretty widely recognised as problematic though. Obviously, but here we're talking about people having no representation - not companies. > "if you want to sell to our citizens, you have to pay us lots of tax" No country that I know of demands "lots of tax". Usually, they just want to receive their "fair" share of tax - e.g. 20% on the profits on the products sold in the country/to…

I don't see such a huge distinction between people and companies as you do. Companies are just groups of people working together. They aren't totally alien things. Governments always claim that their tax is "fair", that doesn't mean anything. We have to evaluate fairness ourselves. In this case, what does "fair" mean? People tolerate taxation because they get something back from it. That's it - that's the only reason…

Hm... again, I think we disagree fundamentally about why taxes are the way they are. Let me explain the way I see it.

A government, its taxes and the public services it offers (firefighters, courts&police, mandatory vaccination, schooling, etc) are a great solution to a prisoner's dilemma that people face: "Why should I contribute for the fire department, when my neighbors will?" Then, a house somewhere caches fire and the whole city burns down, because no one was willing to pay for a single fire truck.

Then, the question is not, "how much does a single person benefit from a specific service", but more "how much does the society benefit" - everybody benefits a lot - less revolutions, less famine, less epidemic illnesses, less crime. How should we finance this? The answer almost all countries converge to is progressive taxation; it makes sense, really, as those who have the most also have the most to loose. What should we tax? Most countries tax income, sales (VAT), and profits/dividends; also specific goods (e.g. tobacco), capital gains/interest, and property. Most of these are IMO good - sales tax is very progressive (those who have more -> consume more -> pay more tax), tobacco tax discourages smoking (a lot of external costs, especially in countries with public health system), property tax promotes effective use of land and is progressive as well, as are capital gains/interests taxes. Personally, I would reduce income tax, and raise profits/dividend tax (as those who work tend to be poor, those who own tend to be rich), but that's just me.

AFAIK, taxes don't work the way you think they do - sales tax is really VAT, so you don't pay 20% (you only pay 20% of the added value you create, which for most businesses is a much lower percentage of revenue) - also, income tax is applied before tax on profits (employee salary is a cost to the business), and for most people it's quite a bit lower than 30% (i.e. for the poor, those who spend most of their paychecks on basic goods). Tax on profits is in many jurisdictions completely optional - the owners could very easily elect to pay no tax on profits (only tax on dividends, which is in line with income tax), but then they would have unlimited liability. Tax on profits is basically the price of buying limited liability.

I'm not saying there should be no double tax treaties - there should be, of course, but companies should not be able pay less tax on the profits generated within one country, just because taxes in the other country are lower.

Re: Leaked Documents Expose Global Companies’ Secret Tax Deals in Luxembourg

#62
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>European Union is a union in a UN sense rather than USA sense Are you from the EU? You do know that EU law supersedes national law, right? Or that a number of southern european countries don't have control of their finances for 5+years now? It's not an inconsequential union. Also, if they are not doing nothing wrong, then i don't know if the word "wrong" has any uses anymore.

EU law functions via directives, which are implemented by governments into local law. It's a little different to the US federal system. Those southern European countries do have direct control of their own finances. They could declare bankruptcy and start over if they wanted to. When people say they are 'controlled' by Germany or whatever, those people are in a lazy and misleading way saying that those countries pref…

So in any case, EU is something a lot deeper than the UN.

Wrt to wrongness, yes, it is wrong that a small country takes advantage of the openness and loopholes of global economies to funnel money in their direction. There is a simple asymmetry at the core that thei exploit: a big democratic country will never be able to lower corporate taxes because the citizens/wealth generators will protest. A tiny dictatorship or otherwise tiny country with no other resources will be able to convince its citizens that a sustainable future can be built by leeching off funneled money made in other countries. To me that is immoral

Or are you suggesting that any of these countries could survive financially with such low tax rates without the foreign money?

PS. With respect to the amount of control over indebted countries government, consider the case of Greece. Yes they could have opted out by voting in a referendum, but when the prime minister proposed to do that he was deposed overnight.

Re: Leaked Documents Expose Global Companies’ Secret Tax Deals in Luxembourg

#63
Does anyone else read these articles and feel a tinge of jealousy? I'm hoping that someday one of my businesses will generate the kind of money that would make tax-hiding worthwhile.

As an aside, it's kind of nice to see the government's over-complicated tax code used against them.

Re: Leaked Documents Expose Global Companies’ Secret Tax Deals in Luxembourg

#64
post #48
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was more difficult than I thought it would be to counter your argument, as there hasn't been a judgement on the exact same circumstances, so I think downvoting you is unjustified. But I still think your legal reasoning is flawed. First, "It is not clear whether or not the right under copyright law to copy an image is always sufficient to give you a right to publish the image" is misleading - yes copyright does cov…

> But I still think your legal reasoning is flawed. I did not make a legal reasoning. I pointed out that the issue is not clear. > Secondly, looking at it from this angle, the Von Hannover judgements of the ECHR provide a number of criteria for judging the lawfullness of publication. You can't only look at the ECHR, as the ECHR is not itself law and the national laws implementing it in each state subject to it differ…

I'm not sure what we're arguing any more - if it's 'is in abstract terms copyright the only legal protection of content distribution' then the answer is an unsurprising and boring 'of course not'.

But if we're talking about this specific case, there is a) copyright, and b) the additional rights of those depicted in a (potentially) copyrighted work, which in terms of the ECHR boils down to art 8 vs art 10. (privacy vs freedom of speech). Which, as I argued before, when measured against the criteria the ECHR laid out for the application and interpretation of the European Convention on Human Rights, can only be reasonably explained one way in the current case.

More specifically, I do not see how national legislation can, in this case, give the GP any right to ask the website that uses his picture to take it down while still be within the bounds that the Court laid out in previous rulings.

Of course I'm just typing here between compiles with a quick Google left and right to roughly check the general validity of what I'm saying, so I did not do an extensive study on the implementations of various relevant laws in all signatories to the ECHR. So if you have any national legislation that you think would give the GP a case, and that would hold up when brought before the ECHR would be held in compliance with the Convention, then we can proceed from there.

Re: Leaked Documents Expose Global Companies’ Secret Tax Deals in Luxembourg

#65
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The European Convention on Human Rights, Article 8 grants a right to privacy. The Fourth Amendment grants "the right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures", except that it doesn't , as evidenced by "Aggressive police take hundreds of millions of dollars from motorists not charged with crimes": http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigati…

I don't really see how people have down-voted you other than the fact that they don't agree with your opinion and I really don't think that should be an excuse to just grey out someone's opinion unless it is downright stupid/misinformed/ or extremely offensive. Is it not better to have the opinion visible and actually have a constructive argument about that vs down-voting it to the point at it is barely readable.

+1 for you, Good Sir :)

Re: Leaked Documents Expose Global Companies’ Secret Tax Deals in Luxembourg

#66
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The European Convention on Human Rights, Article 8 grants a right to privacy. The Fourth Amendment grants "the right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures", except that it doesn't , as evidenced by "Aggressive police take hundreds of millions of dollars from motorists not charged with crimes": http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigati…

Presumably you were downvoted because the comment completely derails from what was under discussion. (EDIT: For what it's worth, I didn't downvote you, but I did think it was a bit of a weird digression) And while I agree with you in theory that "laws don't "actually grant any rights", that's a matter of ideology. For all practical intents , they do. E.g. in the specific case of the European Convention on Human Right…

Sure, it was a bit of a weird digression. But I figured it would be useful to you.

> And while I agree with you in theory that "laws don't "actually grant any rights", that's a matter of ideology. For all practical intents, they do.

Practical intents? Well, here's a practical example: if laws actually affected/defined rights, then the government could just pass a law that says "it's alright to kill innocent bystanders", and people would have no problem with it.

But we both know people would consider such a law illegitimate (and insane), exactly because passing a law that says it's alright to kill people doesn't actually make it moral to do so. In other words, rights are not defined by laws, even in practice.

> it has the effect of granting rights by preventing signatories that have subordinated themselves to it from enforcing laws that try to take those rights away

So once a government signs a paper that says X, it can't sign another paper that says not-X? Or alternatively, if a government promises it'll be good, it can't then be bad?

If government A promises to be good, but is bad, will governments B, C and D then invade A to force it to be good? Or will they go give A a stern talking to? Or will they perhaps impose economic sanctions that hurt their own economies too?

You see, signing a law that says a government will be good is nothing but PR, in practice.

Re: Leaked Documents Expose Global Companies’ Secret Tax Deals in Luxembourg

#67
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see such a huge distinction between people and companies as you do. Companies are just groups of people working together. They aren't totally alien things. Governments always claim that their tax is "fair", that doesn't mean anything. We have to evaluate fairness ourselves. In this case, what does "fair" mean? People tolerate taxation because they get something back from it. That's it - that's the only reason…

Hm... again, I think we disagree fundamentally about why taxes are the way they are. Let me explain the way I see it. A government, its taxes and the public services it offers (firefighters, courts&police, mandatory vaccination, schooling, etc) are a great solution to a prisoner's dilemma that people face: "Why should I contribute for the fire department, when my neighbors will?" Then, a house somewhere caches fire a…

Then, a house somewhere caches fire and the whole city burns down, because no one was willing to pay for a single fire truck.

Yes tax is often to used to pay for public goods, though fire isn't a perfect example because in some parts of the world actually fire protection is considered a product that you buy from the government and you actually can opt out of it. In that case if your home catches fire the fire fighters will turn up and do only as much work as needed to stop it spreading, but they won't bother trying to save your home:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/10/04/firefighters-watch-...

That story is pretty brutal, especially if they really did forget to pay the fee and not merely decide to opt out, though it's hard to know after the fact of course. But it is possible and it does happen.

Still, there are lots of other examples of public goods funded via taxation and vaccination is a good one.

One point of terminology confusion here: sales tax and VAT are not the same thing. Sales taxes usually only apply when goods are sold to a consumer at retail. VATs apply at all parts of the supply chain and have rules in place to charge tax only on the value delta. America uses sales tax, I think most other places (and certainly Europe) use VAT. It's very confusing to claim they are the same thing. Additionally sales taxes are not normally described as progressive - it's the opposite, they are considered regressive:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sales_tax

(see the "effects" section)

... because the rate is the same no matter what your income is. Rich people don't necessarily consume more: they can choose to consume the same amount as poorer people and often do just because many goods are pretty uniform. I.e. rich people tend to use the same smartphones as middle or even lower income people. They don't use smartphones that cost 10,000x as much even if that's how much more they earn.

I'm not saying there should be no double tax treaties - there should be, of course, but companies should not be able pay less tax on the profits generated within one country, just because taxes in the other country are lower.

Companies don't generate profits within a country, they generate sales, and they already pay the local rates of sales tax or VAT. Attempting to bodge this arrangement is why politicians are always screaming about how unfair profit-shifting is, but it's fundamental - how do you define where a profit is made? Deciding where a sale is made is not too hard because you can identify the location of the person who bought the good or service, or where the business is headquartered, but when you add up all the profits from these sales which country gets to help themselves? Consider Google. Is their profit made in California because that's where they were founded and where the brains of the search engine are made? Or Ireland, because that's where the sales people were made? Or Switzerland because there's an office there that contributed a nifty feature that increased profits? How much does each country contribute towards a companies profit? Trying to figure this out is a mugs game, it's entirely arbitrary, which is why companies can game it so easily by having subsidiaries license IP from each other and so on - who can really say what arrangement is correct?

In theory, in the EU, it's simple: profit is booked where the company is headquartered. Same thing for the USA, hence all the companies registered in Delaware, a notorious tax haven. Sometimes you can't arrange things in this way because you need / want to operate outside that trading bloc, this is when you start getting subsidiaries that pay their parent companies huge licensing costs for IP or the brand, but really it's just about moving profits to where the company wants them to be.

Re: Leaked Documents Expose Global Companies’ Secret Tax Deals in Luxembourg

#68

Help! On another, similar article, they have used one of my pictures, with me and my wife in it - http://www.euractiv.com/sections/competition/luxembourg-tax-... The only reason I think is because it was taken in front of the Amazon office in Luxembourg. Any suggestion on how to ask for removal, and possibly compensation for damage?

Creative Commons license covers copyright, but doesn't cover model release. You may have something actionable there.

Re: Leaked Documents Expose Global Companies’ Secret Tax Deals in Luxembourg

#70
post #56
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EU privacy laws does not work that way. EDIT: To expand slightly: That you have published something yourself, in one context, does not automatically imply that publication in others contexts is ok. It may be sufficient in this case, because the article is hardly all that controversial, but you can not automatically assume that publication implies consent for publication elsewhere.

> you can not automatically assume that publication implies consent for publication elsewhere. I'm not automatically assuming that - the guy explicitly licensed his photo as CC-By-Sa - I don't think any reasonable person would assume that means "don't republish" or "republish, but only where I approve"!

Actually, Berne Convention and thus copyright covers this under the description Moral rights (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_rights).

In the US, slander and libel is mostly used to cover this. For example, the publishers are liable if they cause harm to the reputation of the photographer or anyone in the pictures.

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