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How to Survive in SF as a Broke Startup

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Re: How to Survive in SF as a Broke Startup

#81

Post by Kalium »

junto wrote: post #64

It often strikes me as ironic that the very people who build the connected applications that live in the virtual world of the internet are so obsessed about the physical location requirement of San Francisco (and Silicon Valley), in order to become successful in delivering that virtual offering. That being said I have never worked in or worked for a company in "the valley". I've also been a remote freelancer for 15 y…

Need? No.

But Silicon Valley is where the talent is and is easiest to find. It's where growth is easier than anywhere else. The financial price is generally worth it.

Re: How to Survive in SF as a Broke Startup

#82

Post by Kalium »

downandout wrote: post #78
junto wrote: post #64

It often strikes me as ironic that the very people who build the connected applications that live in the virtual world of the internet are so obsessed about the physical location requirement of San Francisco (and Silicon Valley), in order to become successful in delivering that virtual offering. That being said I have never worked in or worked for a company in "the valley". I've also been a remote freelancer for 15 y…

I commented this exact same thing on the last article about living broke in SF that made the front page. It's incredibly ironic. People often talk about talent pool and access to capital as being the main advantages of being in the Valley. These advantages exist to some degree, but are vastly overblown, and you will only be in a position to use them if you are already successful. Further, even if you are funded and s…

Once you get past the very early stage and start needing to scale in terms of staff, you're going to want to have an office in the Valley.

Re: How to Survive in SF as a Broke Startup

#84

Post by kaitai »

robin_reala wrote: post #27
dijit wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

sometimes people downvote for no reason. the reason you're not getting replies is likely because the US are asleep though. I think it's a valid question- although it's probably more about causation; Asian-Americans are less snobbish when it comes to areas to live, my assumption is that they live in area's that Americans wouldn't want to live anyway.

Are ‘Asian-Americans’ not ‘Americans’ in the first place?

Just want to respond to this because it is a pet peeve of mine. There's a cultural habit of using Asian along with our other labels (black, latino or hispanic, white, native, desi), but Asian is a word not like the others, as it refers to a continent and makes you think maybe the person or their parents is really from that continent. I wish we had another word or another set of words, as there are plenty of folks in California whose Asian-American families have been in the area for a century and a half. Oh well.

Re: How to Survive in SF as a Broke Startup

#85

Post by billmalarky »

Kalium wrote: post #81
junto wrote: post #64

It often strikes me as ironic that the very people who build the connected applications that live in the virtual world of the internet are so obsessed about the physical location requirement of San Francisco (and Silicon Valley), in order to become successful in delivering that virtual offering. That being said I have never worked in or worked for a company in "the valley". I've also been a remote freelancer for 15 y…

Need? No. But Silicon Valley is where the talent is and is easiest to find. It's where growth is easier than anywhere else. The financial price is generally worth it.

Sure, but it would make sense to found somewhere else and then move once you see traction.

Re: How to Survive in SF as a Broke Startup

#86

Post by qwerta »

dheera wrote: post #67
junto wrote: post #64

It often strikes me as ironic that the very people who build the connected applications that live in the virtual world of the internet are so obsessed about the physical location requirement of San Francisco (and Silicon Valley), in order to become successful in delivering that virtual offering. That being said I have never worked in or worked for a company in "the valley". I've also been a remote freelancer for 15 y…

The virtual world is great but it doesn't replace the physical world. Location still makes a huge difference to tech startups in terms of getting talent, finding venues and events to pitch your idea, getting investor attention, and all that. No matter how good our video streaming technology these days, it still makes a big, big difference to be with the right people in person. If you were in middle-of-nowhere Nebrask…

I would disagree. There are much more co-founders, programmers and investors within 10.000 miles radius :-)

And if you have a family, LA is just impossible.

Re: How to Survive in SF as a Broke Startup

#87

Post by Retric »

Kalium wrote: post #82
downandout wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I commented this exact same thing on the last article about living broke in SF that made the front page. It's incredibly ironic. People often talk about talent pool and access to capital as being the main advantages of being in the Valley. These advantages exist to some degree, but are vastly overblown, and you will only be in a position to use them if you are already successful. Further, even if you are funded and s…

Once you get past the very early stage and start needing to scale in terms of staff, you're going to want to have an office in the Valley.

Plenty of companies have 1,000+ developers and zero presence in the valley. It's ridiculously overpriced and only really useful for fundraising. Which is why most successful companies mostly grow outside of the valley.

Re: How to Survive in SF as a Broke Startup

#88

Post by lsc »

junto wrote: post #64

It often strikes me as ironic that the very people who build the connected applications that live in the virtual world of the internet are so obsessed about the physical location requirement of San Francisco (and Silicon Valley), in order to become successful in delivering that virtual offering. That being said I have never worked in or worked for a company in "the valley". I've also been a remote freelancer for 15 y…

>Do these talented people really need to be in an office in Silicon Valley, sitting opposite you, tapping away on their keybosrds with their headphones on to as productive or better than me or you?

It really depends on the person. I know for me? I'm vastly more productive when I'm trying to ignore the other people in the room and work.

For me? It's at least in part about immediate and constant social pressure. That, and showing off. I would be super embarrassed, say, if a co-worker noticed me reading HN during work hours. How come I haven't been able to implement something remote for this? Could you rig up webcams or telepresence bots to do the same thing? I don't know.

Working remote? oh well, I just won't put that hour on my timesheet. I mean, I'm honest about my hours, but in the last few remote situations I was in, I just didn't put in the hours.

Now, not everyone is like this. I know many people that are vastly more productive when alone, in fact the most productive individual contributor technical people I know are vastly more productive alone.

But for me, my own faults and weaknesses line up such that I need an office. I need that social pressure keeping me on track. The difference in productivity is vast; enough, at least, to justify significant rent and some commute time.

Re: How to Survive in SF as a Broke Startup

#89

Post by Retric »

danielbarla wrote: post #50
zingar wrote: post #19

Interesting. To live here in South Africa on those numbers you'd have to make similar sacrifices, in an economy which I normally regard as 10x cheaper than (what I've heard of) SF. Some questions: 1. When I hear people on this site talking about "low" startup engineer wages in SF, the numbers I see are 60k - 80k / year. But this article makes that number look like glorious riches by comparison. Living in the dining r…

I know that it wasn't the point of your post, but I think the 10x comparison is a bit off (I'm also in SA). On paper SA is supposed to have a purchasing power parity of around -50 to -60% [1] (so, things are on average that much cheaper here than in the USA). Of course, SF is significantly more expensive than other places in the USA (although typically not more than a factor of say, 1.5 to 2x). If we add all this up,…

People rarely make apples to apples comparisons.

A nice 4 bedroom house on 2 acres is easily 10 to 20+x as much in the Valley vs most of the US. Generally, when running the numbers people adjust for this and look at the housing people actually buy vs trying to do direct comparisons.

Cars on the other hand tend to be close to the same price anywhere you live. But, insurance vary's a fair bit.

So, while directly living a 35k lifestyle in India might cost 500k in the valley, most people are willing to make reasonable sacrifices. And thare are advantages to living in a major city.

Re: How to Survive in SF as a Broke Startup

#90

Post by lsc »

downandout wrote: post #56

If you really want to be rational about your company (no personal or business income tax), live cheaply relative to San Francisco, and yet be close to it, start your company in Reno, NV. Rents are 1/2 to 1/3rd of what they are in SF. There is a relatively large and growing tech scene (Gigafactory is being built in Reno, there are several drone startups, SNC does space/military stuff, IGT and Bally Technologies are al…

The thing is, the tax rates only matter if you are successful. Well, mostly. You mostly only pay taxes on profit. (there are exceptions, like payroll taxes, but those are mostly federal.)

I'd be happy to promise to pay a billion dollars if my company ever has more than two billion dollars on hand, if paying that billion makes it even slightly more likely that my company will become that successful in the future.

Face facts, as a friend used to say, your company will probably fail before it makes enough money to pay significant taxes.

And money on the upside? it's got diminishing marginal value. Making promises to give away some of the upside, if it gives you a better chance of getting to the point that there is a significant upside, often makes a lot of sense.

All that said, complexity matters a lot. I mean, until I start making money, I don't really care what the tax rate is - I'm not making much money, so I'm not paying much in taxes. But I'm paying my accountant, and even then, my accountant makes me think at least a little about taxes. And taxes are super complex.

When your company is small, you will spend more money figuring out how much to pay than you will spend on actual taxes. Complexity is a cost even when you are small and posting small profits.

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