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On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

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Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#321

Post by laughfactory »

arca_vorago wrote: post #197
rakoo wrote: post #44

> The answer clearly isn’t economic I beg to differ. I totally agree with the paradox (with the advances in technology, humans should be working less) but the problem, today, is economic: - In order to live you need money - In order to obtain money you need to work (except for the lucky too few) - Therefore, work needs to exist to provide people with money, to the point of creating "useless" jobs if needs be How are…

My SO has recently been on a kick about basic income, and I admit I have been skeptical. Could you elaborate on the pros/cons of basic income as you understand it please?

The main downside, in a nutshell, is inflation. There's simply no way to distribute the same amount to everyone in an economy and not have proportional inflation occur--because basically what you've done is dilute the value of every dollar in the economy. This is essentially what has happened with the cost of college. The more aid we give students, the more colleges soak it up...which leads to those who needed assistance still needing assistance as much as before, but the absolute cost of education has just risen.

Basic income sounds like a great idea until you realize the above.

Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#322

Post by afterburner »

binarymax wrote: post #28

I just had a great trip to a cousins wedding and saw a lot of family. My Parents' generation are now just past the 'age of retirement' and are in their late 60s and early 70s. The majority of them are still working in their bullshit jobs. I asked several if they were going to retire soon and they all replied the same. If they retire what would they do? Even though their work is mostly pointless from a job function pe…

Well, maybe you and and your family don't. Not me. There's plenty I like and want to do when I have spare time. There are different types of people in the world. Don't let one person's personality define the system.

Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#323

Post by spenuke »

byEngineer wrote: post #282
spenuke wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow. Are you saying that you adhere to the Libertarian/Ayn Rand philosophy of personal responsibility, equitable rewards for creating value to society, and all that jazz? You know, the type of philosophy that purportedly values personal integrity and creativity above all else? ... And yet you happily pull down a six-figure paycheck for a job you believe is worthless? Because, if so, you should know that the sense of…

Who is a hypocrite here? I thought you would be happy to hear I'm exploiting these evil big banks, too big too fail. I like Ayn Rand but don't agree on everything she said. But for the sake of argument let's say I agree with her 100%. So, then: I use the company's money and time to work on my own Projects. I selfishly exploit stupid and weak that should die in the natural capitalistic process, but democratically elec…

"I'm a parasite on the sick system because I want it to die. I don't see anything against Ayn Rand philosophy here."

Oh, I agree with you completely. Most of her critics will say that her system is obfuscatory bullshit to distract from the fact that it's no more sophisticated than the plain old selfishness that you see in every preschool. It's just that Randroids don't usually admit that they are societal parasites, so your candor is refreshing.

Also, to be clear, I'm not sure if you're joking about exploiting the banks. Isn't your beef with Congress that they used taxpayer money to bail the banks out? Is it really that hard to see that you're exploiting the taxpayers, too? Don't you see that "the banks" are nothing but a bunch of people just like you, thinking they're not part of the exploitation of the taxpayer?

Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#324

Post by thedufer »

zaccus wrote: post #296
thedufer wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People actually like to work - to feel useful Your argument seems to hinge on this, but I see no reason to believe it. There have been fairly long-term experiments on BI, and people who choose not to work do things they enjoy - learning to paint, going to school, etc. There weren't any problems with people "needing to work" but not being able to. > It it proven and was highly successful during the previous depressi…

>There have been fairly long-term experiments on BI, and people who choose not to work do things they enjoy - learning to paint, going to school, etc. How are those things not work? They require focused effort, just the same as any job does. Does something not qualify as "work" just because it is enjoyable?

I was using some implicit assumptions made by crdoconnor (without which the `"need to work" -> PWA > BI` implication falls apart). The first, that "work" implies something you can reasonably be paid for. And the second, that there's some dependence on others in order to do the work.

Alternatively, you can re-word my argument if you'd like - the human need to work doesn't imply that BI is insufficient because people can find meaningful work on their own.

I thought the first argument was clearer, but your comment forced me to think harder about the second - and in retrospect, I think it makes more sense put that way.

Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#325

Post by jerf »

dnautics wrote: post #303
jerf wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I sometimes describe myself as "libertarian", this is actually closer to one of my core positions. Large organizations become large because somehow, at some point in their past, they discovered how to produce some sort of wealth greatly in excess of what they were spending to produce it. This creates security for the entity. This security means that they are no longer getting feedback from the real world about…

(self-described libertarian here:) you don't suppose that large organizations often become large because they benefit from government subsidy? Aside from obvious candidates like Boeing and Lockheed Martin, I personally think that the inflation/investment social model whereby individuals are pushed into stock market or mutual funds that trade stocks, is a stealth subsidy that selectively benefits large companies and i…

Obviously, my post is at best a sketch of a principle rather than a complete description of the economy and government as a whole :)

But the advantage of describing it in the terms that I did is that, yes, government subsidy can be a way that an entity generates more wealth than it is spending to obtain it. But it is only one way. If that particular way is special, it is only due to its especially feedback-isolating effects (being beholden to voluntary customers for money provides more direct feedback than being beholden to another over-large entity), rather than any special "government" badness.

Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#326

Post by tedks »

oldmanjay wrote: post #175
tedks wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Home Depot existed long before software. It'll exist long after software, too. Remember that we live in a bubble.

There isn't going to be an "after software" with any sort of meaningful human civilization still around.

This is the sort of arrogance that creates and bursts bubbles.

I hope you can learn to live sustainably and in harmony with nature and your own soul before it's too late.

Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#327

Post by oldmanjay »

tedks wrote: post #326
oldmanjay wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There isn't going to be an "after software" with any sort of meaningful human civilization still around.

This is the sort of arrogance that creates and bursts bubbles. I hope you can learn to live sustainably and in harmony with nature and your own soul before it's too late.

you seem to be conflating observation with arrogance. what, pray tell, makes you believe software will vanish? will there be a civilization post-agriculture or literacy? software is bigger than both.

Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#328

Post by duaneb »

jug6ernaut wrote: post #67
furyg3 wrote: post #48

While there's a lot to debate in the article, kudos to Graeber for talking about a taboo. White-collar employees 'work' (periods of focused concentration) a lot less than 40 hours. There are exceptions, and HNers may deny this fact (because the demographic is different or because the taboo is more powerful in this circle), but Graeber's inebriated cocktail party confessions match my own discussions with friends. Howe…

I am not going to deny anything you said, its almost 100% true. But I believe your missing an important "fact"(maybe). That is its not really physically/physiologically/mentally possible to put in 40 hours of true "work". Not consistently anyways. So as much as it is we not truly putting in 40 hours, its the entire effort to be available for 40 hours IMO that you are getting paid for.

I don't think so. I've worked kitchen jobs working 70 hours a week—so long as you don't have to think critically the entire time, it's definitely doable.

Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#329

Post by duaneb »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #138
shkkmo wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many of the physical jobs also require a lot of critical thought. There is a reason why accident rates go up significanly the more hours people are forced to work. The difference is not that office jobs require more critical thought, but that physical jobs tend to produce actual value, and tend to produce value that is more easily measured.

It is ultimately very satisfying to see your complete roof, new shingles neatly laid across 5000 square feet. Or your plowed field ready for the planter, 80 acres of potential fertility. Even a half-acre neatly mowed. I don't know if it beats a library debugged and turning over 50,000 calls per second, but at least you can look at the other ones, see the whole expanse of what you accomplished laid out under the sun.

> I don't know if it beats a library debugged and turning over 50,000 calls per second, but at least you can look at the other ones, see the whole expanse of what you accomplished laid out under the sun

To me, being able to physically view work is orders of magnitude better to my mood than abstract accomplishments.

Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#330

Post by sklogic »

refurb wrote: post #290
sklogic wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This difference is not that clear. Governments are bailing out failing banks and handing out beefy contracts; pension funds are owning sizeable proportions of the huge, slow, stupid companies, etc. All with my money.

I think your comment supports my point entirely. Your issue is with the gov't and pension funds, not with the slow, stupid companies.

Money is not my only issue. Bullshit jobs are also bothering me, as well as the fact that I'm forced to deal with such inefficient and stupid entities on a daily basis. Banking, shopping, whatever else - you can't hide from the large companies stupidity.
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