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On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

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Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#151

Post by wolfgke »

rakoo wrote: post #44

> The answer clearly isn’t economic I beg to differ. I totally agree with the paradox (with the advances in technology, humans should be working less) but the problem, today, is economic: - In order to live you need money - In order to obtain money you need to work (except for the lucky too few) - Therefore, work needs to exist to provide people with money, to the point of creating "useless" jobs if needs be How are…

> The only answer is to decouple them, and introduce something like basic income (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income)

Or finding work for these people that is a lot more useful for the society.

Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#152

Post by jahaja »

kissickas wrote: post #88
jahaja wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think those rationalisations hold ups. The facts of workforce expansion and productivity & efficiency gains can't simply be shrugged off by "overpopulation". This is intentional political policy, nothing else.

So you agree with this statement?: > The ruling class has figured out that a happy and productive population with free time on their hands is a mortal danger (think of what started to happen when this even began to be approximated in the ‘60s). I was with him until there... I'd like to believe things like that and blame it all on the "evil politicians," but I'm really not sure the "ruling class" is that organized. Th…

As always the written word is open for interpretations and that statement is no exception.

What I read from that statement, and knowing a bit about the author's background and sharing much of the same political ideas myself, is that it's in the interest of the ruling class that people do not have much time on their hands to actually start enjoying not working. Unemployment, and retirement for some, would clearly be more managable if friends and family were not working so much. Just to discover a way of life that's not centered around working. I also think that a working class with more time on their hands would inevitably become more organised with increased class conciousness as a side-effect.

So basically the idea is that less working time may be a "slipperly slope" that goes against the interests of the ruling class both in the short-term and even more so in the long-term.

The second statement is, as I understand it, that this is not driven by some organised unit of capitalist but rather by the idea that the higher classes are more aware of what is in their interests that no central organisation is needed.

Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#153

Post by thaumasiotes »

Zarel wrote: post #105
jseliger wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

White-collar employees 'work' (periods of focused concentration) a lot less than 40 hours There's definite truth to this, but it's also true that, as many hackers have attested, moments of downtime and wandering attention are often where new ideas come from. Sample: I suspect a lot of people aren't sure what's the top idea in their mind at any given time. I'm often mistaken about it. I tend to think it's the idea I'd…

Can't that kind of "work" be done just as well while doing yardwork or cooking or similar things? I don't see a strong reason to confine employees for 40 hours a week for that.

This relates to a personal pet issue of mine -- schools like to run surveys asking how much time you spend on homework. But, as far as I can see, the question is ill-posed.

Take a non-hypothetical example: I'm given a math assignment, with the problem "prove (something complicated)". I look over the assignment, think for a few seconds about the problem, think "nah, that won't work", fail to come up with a different approach, and file it away somewhere in favor of surfing the net and watching my roommates play old console RPGs.

Days later, a new approach occurs to me and I come back to the assignment. This time I'm able to prove (something complicated). Writing out the proof takes 20 minutes.

How long did I spend on that question? I wasn't able to do the work immediately, so "21 minutes" can't be right. But I probably didn't actually need to spend several days having it in the back of my mind either. Maybe if I'd been confined in a little room with just me and the assignment I would have had it done in two hours, or five (really frustrating) hours. There's just no way to measure how long I spent "working". My quality of life goes up if I take the approach of "don't sit down to work until the solution serendipitously occurs to you", but, in an analogous situation, my boss might be a lot happier confining me in a room to sit "unproductively" for 5 hours and write ("productively") for 20 minutes.

Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#154

Post by facepalm »

kefka wrote: post #24
facepalm wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't it also the responsibility of the individual to gain skills that are valuable? I don't think what you describe is true for Software Developers in Sillicon Valley, for example. How much vacation do Software Developers in the Valley usually get?

The Silicon Valley is not indicative of jobs in the US. What some developer there gets has little/no bearing on what happens elsewhere. You also did not argue the core assertion that the employer-employee contract is heavily skewed to the employer. That has been true for the last 30 years. Productivity has made great inroads, yet pay and benefits have dropped significantly. So yes, this is a government issue. The emp…

If employers have such a sweet deal, just become an employer? Why is there an entitlement for employment?

Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#155

Post by evoloution »

Choose your friends carefully, you never know when your life is going to land on HN: * Corporate lawyer working in a prominent New York firm * A poet in the past * Front man in an indie rock band in the past that his songs made it to the radio There shouldn't be more than 10 people fitting the description... Admits that his job was utterly meaningless, contributed nothing to the world, and, in his own estimation, should not really exist.

Btw great article!

Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#156

Post by mathattack »

The answer clearly isn’t economic: it’s moral and political. The ruling class has figured out that a happy and productive population with free time on their hands is a mortal danger (think of what started to happen when this even began to be approximated in the ‘60s). And, on the other hand, the feeling that work is a moral value in itself, and that anyone not willing to submit themselves to some kind of intense work discipline for most of their waking hours deserves nothing, is extraordinarily convenient for them.

I just don't buy this. If you view capitalists as evil, they are doing it to pocket money, not as some grand conspiracy to keep people busy. If it were economically possible to keep people busy in a capitalist society, inflation would be zero.

Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#157

Post by eli_gottlieb »

pidg wrote: post #84
bryanlarsen wrote: post #74

As hammerzeit mentioned, a lot of bullshit jobs are there because of an arms race. Your competitors have marketers, lobbyists and corporate lawyers, so you need them too. If everybody fired 90% of their marketers, marketing dollars would go 10x as far, and things wouldn't change much. Just take a look at marketing. It's an industry that's so big it props up newspapers, television, Google and most of the rest the web…

If being a marketer is a bullshit job, then being a web developer is a bullshit job too. Most people could spend a week with a marketing book and do some basic marketing. Likewise, most people could spend a week learning WordPress and create a passable website. So let's reduce the number of web developers by 90% too! Think of the billions it could save in inflated invoices from web agencies (commissioned by clueless…

> If being a marketer is a bullshit job, then being a web developer is a bullshit job too.

I was wondering when someone would notice!

Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#158

Post by padobson »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #138
shkkmo wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many of the physical jobs also require a lot of critical thought. There is a reason why accident rates go up significanly the more hours people are forced to work. The difference is not that office jobs require more critical thought, but that physical jobs tend to produce actual value, and tend to produce value that is more easily measured.

It is ultimately very satisfying to see your complete roof, new shingles neatly laid across 5000 square feet. Or your plowed field ready for the planter, 80 acres of potential fertility. Even a half-acre neatly mowed. I don't know if it beats a library debugged and turning over 50,000 calls per second, but at least you can look at the other ones, see the whole expanse of what you accomplished laid out under the sun.

Whenever I walk through a Home Depot, I think "Man, the people that use this stuff are really MAKING things." Inevitably, my next thought is, "And a place like Home Depot could never operate without software making it work behind the scenes."

Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#159

Post by narag »

VBprogrammer wrote: post #104
ams6110 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is possible and commonplace in jobs where you physically work. Construction, any of the trades, factory work, food service... if you work 40 hours you have actually worked very close to 40 hours. There isn't any real opportunity to slack off or stand around in those jobs. Office jobs, yeah. Many of those are bullshit jobs.

I know what you're getting at, but I'd be reasonably confident in speculating that there is just as much slacking off on construction projects as any other employment. Some of it maybe genuinely waiting for something to happen (crane to move something, cement truck to arrive etc). I'm not sure whether you'd count that as slacking off but it's certainly not working.

I've done blue collar work (construction was one) without much slacking at all, stops just to light a cigarrette o drink a beer, but it was mostly a continuous stream of little tasks. It made sense to not rush but neither stop, so it 'flows': you're never to tired and keep "the engine" warm.

Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#160

Post by facepalm »

mgkimsal wrote: post #25
facepalm wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't it also the responsibility of the individual to gain skills that are valuable? I don't think what you describe is true for Software Developers in Sillicon Valley, for example. How much vacation do Software Developers in the Valley usually get?

not everyone can be a software developer, and frankly we can't have a society of people who only have specialist skills. There will always be a need for people with minimal skills to do low-skill jobs. They're doing work that has to get done too.

If there is a need, people will pay (and offer vacations). Seems the need is not big enough.

And what message is that for people: hey, don't learn stuff, because we need your cheap unskilled labor?

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