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On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

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Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#51
post #40

Reading this, I was reminded of the "B Ark" from Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy : (1) The B Ark is technically named "Golgafrincham Ark Fleet, Ship B". The Golgafrincham civilization hatched a plan to eliminate its society of its most useless workers, namely its service sector and its paper shufflers. The Golgafrinchans created a legend that their world was about to be destroyed and they needed to build three arks.…

I hate that particular joke because of how it so casually blames the victim. Awful jobs exist in the system and people are crammed into them by economic force.

Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#52
In more professional settings certain job titles seem pointless but actually add a diversity of thinking that would otherwise be lacking. For example, you may not really need a lawyer to check something. But good lawyers have a knack of identifying logical inconsistancies and always find spelling mistakes which is useful. Or an IT expert operating in an office of social scientists will think about problems in an entirely different way. Sometimes maintaining a multi disiplinary team is more important than being 100% efficient on an individual level.

Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That answer is complete bullshit. > In the United States, socialism is virtually nonexistent. Except for Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security and Unemployment. And don't forget the military.

By that definition the whole of Western Europe would be a socialist state. Government services like these do not equal socialism. I live in The Netherlands, a pretty liberal kingdom with excellent social security and unemployment benefits. But don't be mistaken, it's not a socialist country. Not by a long shot. The biggest political parties are liberal-conservative and social-democrats. The latter lean towards the le…

> By that definition the whole of Western Europe would be a socialist state.

Much of the US believes that to be the case.

Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#54
This reads like a classic Graeber piece, in that he's starts off by tackling some fascinating questions -- why are there 2x the administrative workers in the US as in Europe -- but then skips straight to the anarchist polemics.

Most of the jobs he categorizes as "bullshit" all share an element of arms-race components to them. i.e. if my competitor has really good telemarketers/lobbyists/corporate lawyers, I'd better have one too -- _or they'll beat me_. How is it that that reflects some sort of keep-the-masses-down 1% malfeasance?

To me, the tell that he defined "bullshit" as "jobs I don't like or understand" is that he lumped in actuaries with telemarketers -- does he think providing insurance has no value?

Similarly he writes: "What does it say about our society that it seems to generate an extremely limited demand for talented poet-musicians, but an apparently infinite demand for specialists in corporate law?" There are more musicians employed in this country [1] than there are people in biglaw [2].

Ultimately, it seems like Graeber wants to return to a butcher-and-baker economy, where all our jobs are focused on directly providing services to consumers. That sounds charming, but makes as much sense as a world with all consumer startups and no b2b/enterprise startups.

[1] http://www.bls.gov/ooh/entertainment-and-sports/musicians-an... -- 167,400 musicians

[2] see http://www.law.harvard.edu/programs/plp/pages/statistics.php... -- 70,000 lawyers in biglaw

Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#55
post #37

I just had a great trip to a cousins wedding and saw a lot of family. My Parents' generation are now just past the 'age of retirement' and are in their late 60s and early 70s. The majority of them are still working in their bullshit jobs. I asked several if they were going to retire soon and they all replied the same. If they retire what would they do? Even though their work is mostly pointless from a job function pe…

I can't help but pity people who say "there is nothing better to do" (but then again, maybe that's because I'm employed, working 10 hours a day). We live at a time when "I have nothing to do" is a really bullshit excuse. You have the whole internet available! - learn languages (e.g. Portuguese, Russian, Chinese, Japanese, Arabic, Spanish - to cover most of the world's population) - learn new stuff (statistics/machine…

For perhaps 10% of the population, maybe less, what OPs parents said is true.

The other 90% or more of the people claiming they're bored would never do 40 hrs/wk of volunteer work... its just a socially acceptable way to say they can't afford it.

A good gauge would be to ask them if they'd do it part time or volunteer.

Some other reasons that aren't socially acceptable to talk about but are true, revolve around workers in highly capitalist sectors / hobbies can't have fun toys at home. My Aunt the chemical engineer can have a lot more fun at work than at home. Large machine tool operators who actually love the craft not the paycheck can't have a lathe bigger than their garage at home in their garage. Cluster operators. Large network operators. Some of the more exotic/modern corners of EE work.

What people say socially often has nothing to do with reality.

Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#56
Regardless of the author's ideology, this article brings something of value to software engineers: it is both to our and society's advantage if we stop building bullshit and focus on real problems. An engineer at Kittygram is likely to be working on a bullshit, ultimately irrelevant job, but few people would question the value of an engineer's work if he's doing groundbreaking medical software.

Of course, people don't always choose to have bullshit jobs, and getting to the level where you can build something of impact is not easy. I'm far from there myself. But I have the feeling many of us don't really look for meaningful jobs - truth be told, we don't even _think_ about these things.

Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#57
Graeber makes no distinction between "useful" as in: a) creator of exchange value to it's maker; b) creator of utility to it's holder; b) psychologically "meaningful" to the worker. And while the core of the article deals with the latter, by not making this distinction he dangerously suggests the two former.

As much I'd like to believe that managers are stupid, they're not crazy to hand out free money. If an employee generated no additional income to it's employer, there would be no reason to hire him in the first place. Similarly, if the holder of a good derived no enjoyment from it, it would be of no value at all to him.

It's hard to believe, for instance, that a "corporate lawyer's" work has no social value. The job of lawyers isn't even to win legal battles, but to avoid them in the first place. The job of a corporate lawyer is to ensure corporations are compliant with all the paperwork necessary to their operation. For sufficiently large corporations, they're a necessary condition for it's functioning.

For me, the only reason why his argument might seem personally intuitive is because the majority of things in capitalism are of no use at all to any given particular person, even if all of them are "useful" in some way. Paparazzi, dog-washers and all-night pizza deliverymen are useless for all but the people who demand their services. It's not hard to see why consumers would have little interest in contract law if they deal so little with it, and when they do, their job of understanding it has already been cushioned by a specialist.

I see little point in coffee shops. Nonetheless, people flock to places with well-developed service economies that offer such things (e.g. New York, San Francisco) along with dog-washers. Perhaps because they know they'll cater to their bullshit tastes too.

Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#58
Glad that it's shared, the Economist talked about it last year, http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2013/08/labour-m.... Don't think these jobs exist because there's some scheme to keep people free and happy "The ruling class has figured out that a happy and productive population with free time on their hands is a mortal danger (think of what started to happen when this even began to be approximated in the ‘60s)." Just that not many people actually build things. Currency and paper money also has a role to play here. I'd like to see that many people are encouraged to build things on a level playing field.

Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By that definition the whole of Western Europe would be a socialist state. Government services like these do not equal socialism. I live in The Netherlands, a pretty liberal kingdom with excellent social security and unemployment benefits. But don't be mistaken, it's not a socialist country. Not by a long shot. The biggest political parties are liberal-conservative and social-democrats. The latter lean towards the le…

> By that definition the whole of Western Europe would be a socialist state. Much of the US believes that to be the case.

Likewise, I've heard people on several occasions call the US a 3rd world country because of its poor social infrastructure.

Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't it also the responsibility of the individual to gain skills that are valuable? I don't think what you describe is true for Software Developers in Sillicon Valley, for example. How much vacation do Software Developers in the Valley usually get?

not everyone can be a software developer, and frankly we can't have a society of people who only have specialist skills. There will always be a need for people with minimal skills to do low-skill jobs. They're doing work that has to get done too.

> frankly we can't have a society of people who only have specialist skills.

Out of curiosity, why not?

And frankly, isn't it already the case? Most people are unable to produce enough for their own survival today. They can't grow crops, build a home, even make their own bread. Instead they are specialists at project management, javascript or flipping burgers. I'm not arguing that this is bad or wrong, I am only saying your statement that a society of people with specialist skills would not be possible.

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