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Former NSA lawyer: the cyberwar is between tech firms and the US government

theguardian.com

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Re: Former NSA lawyer: the cyberwar is between tech firms and the US government

#21

Post by fnordfnordfnord »

maerF0x0 wrote: post #3

>"Baker said encrypting user data had been a bad business model for Blackberry, which has had to dramatically downsize its business and refocus on business customers. “Blackberry pioneered the same business model that Google and Apple are doing now - that has not ended well for Blackberry,” said Baker. Baker is incompetent. Blackberry's primary advantage was its encryption. It branded itself as a business device and…

>Blackberry fell behind, failing to deliver the diversity of apps that iOS and Android did. Sales of devices fell and hence they've had to lay off 1000s.

BB had a string of embarrassing system outages that also didn't help.

Re: Former NSA lawyer: the cyberwar is between tech firms and the US government

#22

Post by Spooky23 »

revelation wrote: post #7
maerF0x0 wrote: post #3

>"Baker said encrypting user data had been a bad business model for Blackberry, which has had to dramatically downsize its business and refocus on business customers. “Blackberry pioneered the same business model that Google and Apple are doing now - that has not ended well for Blackberry,” said Baker. Baker is incompetent. Blackberry's primary advantage was its encryption. It branded itself as a business device and…

Blackberry is suddenly the posterchild for encryption? I thought Blackberry is this service where all your mail and communication is routed in cleartext through their services, a workaround from the days of 1G that they simply never got around to get rid of before smartphones flattened their business. That is not encryption, if anything it is the direct opposite.

In enterprise environments, your traffic is/was strongly encrypted from the device to your BES server.

Re: Former NSA lawyer: the cyberwar is between tech firms and the US government

#23

Post by Zigurd »

csandreasen wrote: post #17
rdl wrote: post #5

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ak4ZwLU3aX0 is the raw video. I'm obviously a bit biased here, but I've always wondered if Baker actually believes his arguments or not.

Thanks for the link to the video. I think his argument makes sense (just speaking with regards to encryption - they brought up a couple of things in the discussion), but you have to keep in mind that he's arguing from a completely different perspective than most of the folks posting to HN. Whereas it's usually in the best interest for a private citizen to have all of the data on his/her device encrypted and only decr…

Why would these use cases need end to end encryption?

Re: Former NSA lawyer: the cyberwar is between tech firms and the US government

#24

Post by ddispaltro »

Spooky23 wrote: post #20
maerF0x0 wrote: post #3

>"Baker said encrypting user data had been a bad business model for Blackberry, which has had to dramatically downsize its business and refocus on business customers. “Blackberry pioneered the same business model that Google and Apple are doing now - that has not ended well for Blackberry,” said Baker. Baker is incompetent. Blackberry's primary advantage was its encryption. It branded itself as a business device and…

It is touching that a NSA lawyer cares so deeply about Apple and Google's business model. BlackBerry fucked up their business the old fashioned way -- by screwing up. They were an early player that listened too closely to their early adopter customers. These customers, including the banks and federal government, cared about stuff like keyboards and CAC integration. I've worked in very large IT environments, and users…

This is exactly what I was thinking. It's incredibly frustrating that this guy is spewing complete garbage. Hopefully the public (probably not true) is starting to see through this crap and realize this is a last ditch effort to attack companies trying to do the right thing.

Re: Former NSA lawyer: the cyberwar is between tech firms and the US government

#25

Post by ddispaltro »

Zigurd wrote: post #12
atmosx wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hm, maybe Apple can do that, but for Google not looking at the data is not an option, it's the core business. For facebook too. However maybe, just maybe, they can come up with a way to share with governments only a small fraction, protecting their customers/users. I don't see how, but their engineers are smart, they could figure out something that works. It's not just NSA or the US here. These corporations are multi…

Subscription services are almost always more profitable than ad supported services. If encrypted gmail and hangouts were priced like the storage I buy from Google, I'd be a paying customer.

I personally prefer it as well, but I imagine that statement is hard to back up (although I wish it is true). Did you mean specifically profitable or income related?

Re: Former NSA lawyer: the cyberwar is between tech firms and the US government

#26

Post by csandreasen »

Zigurd wrote: post #23
csandreasen wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the link to the video. I think his argument makes sense (just speaking with regards to encryption - they brought up a couple of things in the discussion), but you have to keep in mind that he's arguing from a completely different perspective than most of the folks posting to HN. Whereas it's usually in the best interest for a private citizen to have all of the data on his/her device encrypted and only decr…

Why would these use cases need end to end encryption?

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. I wasn't meaning to limit my argument to data in transit - I was also including data at rest.

To answer your question though, end-to-end encryption of data in transit will obviously interfere with an employer's ability to log transactions.

I think Mr. Baker's arguments were more directed at the recent ubiquitous iPhone encryption controversy (in fact, after doing a quick search, he made almost the exact same argument in the NY Times directed explicitly towards Apple[1], although I think his wording could be toned down slightly). Since the decryption mechanism on the iPhone is tied to chip inside it, it limits a company's ability to hand you a corporate iPhone and still be able to monitor what you're doing with it, hand it over to the cops, etc.

Baker makes the further argument that while Apple can encrypt everyone's data to the chagrin of the FBI and the federal government is unlikely to enact any laws preventing it or hindering sales, Apple will have a much harder time doing the same in certain foreign markets. A country like China will likely have much more political will to push Apple out of the market if their cops can't decrypt people's phones. Maybe that will ultimately be a good thing, but by trying to send a message to the US government they might be opening up a much larger can of worms overseas.

[1] http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2014/09/30/apple-vs-the...

Re: Former NSA lawyer: the cyberwar is between tech firms and the US government

#27

Post by csandreasen »

Spooky23 wrote: post #20
maerF0x0 wrote: post #3

>"Baker said encrypting user data had been a bad business model for Blackberry, which has had to dramatically downsize its business and refocus on business customers. “Blackberry pioneered the same business model that Google and Apple are doing now - that has not ended well for Blackberry,” said Baker. Baker is incompetent. Blackberry's primary advantage was its encryption. It branded itself as a business device and…

It is touching that a NSA lawyer cares so deeply about Apple and Google's business model. BlackBerry fucked up their business the old fashioned way -- by screwing up. They were an early player that listened too closely to their early adopter customers. These customers, including the banks and federal government, cared about stuff like keyboards and CAC integration. I've worked in very large IT environments, and users…

What Baker is trying to express is that companies like Apple could be shooting themselves in the foot with corporate sales if the data sitting on devices they're manufacturing can't be handed over when counsel tells you that there's a valid warrant. If Apple says the data on the phones is completely secure and not even the cops can get to it, then that means IT can't get to it when directed to, either. Management might not like that so much.

Re: Former NSA lawyer: the cyberwar is between tech firms and the US government

#29

Post by Spooky23 »

csandreasen wrote: post #27
Spooky23 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is touching that a NSA lawyer cares so deeply about Apple and Google's business model. BlackBerry fucked up their business the old fashioned way -- by screwing up. They were an early player that listened too closely to their early adopter customers. These customers, including the banks and federal government, cared about stuff like keyboards and CAC integration. I've worked in very large IT environments, and users…

What Baker is trying to express is that companies like Apple could be shooting themselves in the foot with corporate sales if the data sitting on devices they're manufacturing can't be handed over when counsel tells you that there's a valid warrant. If Apple says the data on the phones is completely secure and not even the cops can get to it, then that means IT can't get to it when directed to, either. Management mig…

If as a company, you aren't managing your devices, (trivial to do at low cost via MDM) there is no difference between encrypted/unencrypted -- you're reliant on the custodian of the phone to do the right thing when turning over the device.

Baker wants the US to have the same access to data that Saudi Arabian or Indian law requires, except in those countries there is actual law requiring this. NSA/et al prefers "gentleman's agreements" backed by some broadly defined law that is impossible to contest in open court.

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