New Startup Raises $100M for Portable Ultrasound • Hacker News Board

Re: New Startup Raises $100M for Portable Ultrasound

#31

Post by tricky » Mon, Nov 03, 2014, 4:55 PM UTC

Some researchers at wash u engineering built a cheap, phone based ultrasound in 2009:

http://news.wustl.edu/news/Pages/13928.aspx

I did various forms of cardiac ultrasound research for 10 years at the med school. So, I know a little bit about it. It's easy to find your heart or a baby, but knowing enough to make any sort of diagnosis takes a lot of practice. No matter how smart you think you are, you won't be able to order one of these on Amazon Prime and find a leaky valve or a problem with your gallbladder. The images are noisy. Positioning the probe to get a clear view of the structure you want to see is an art. If you're obese, forget about it.

I'm all for disrupting the imaging industry with cheap hardware, but this article and a lot of the comments here show the general lack of knowledge about medicine. Have a look at the comments in the heart attack thread. Some people think they can just buy an ECG and self-diagnose a heart attack. If anyone spent twenty minutes looking at ECG's (or ultrasounds) with a knowledgable tech they'd cringe at how stupid they sounded. Ultrasound is the exact same thing.

Finally, ultrasounds are regulated medical devices. As far as I know, it's illegal to own one.

On a happier note, 3D ultrasound is kind of awesome. If you get a probe that can rotate 180 degrees, it is really easy to make a 3D model of the structures. I did it for a work-study job in 1998 on an old SGI indigo. Sadly, you can get much better pictures in MRI or CT so 3D ultrasound is not really used in the clinic (it's gaining some traction in cardiology, though)

Re: New Startup Raises $100M for Portable Ultrasound

#32

Post by maratd » Mon, Nov 03, 2014, 4:59 PM UTC

dgreensp wrote: post #25

I have an ultrasound that we bought on eBay when my wife was pregnant. The reason more individuals don't own them is that it's illegal! No company that makes ultrasound machines will sell them to a non-doctor, because of some kind of regulations. I believe they don't want people to think they can diagnose themselves when it actually takes a doctor. Whatever the reason, that's why more people don't own sub-$10k ultras…

> I believe they don't want people to think they can diagnose themselves when it actually takes a doctor.

That is not the only reason. Long-term effects of ultrasound are unknown. Short-term effects are increases in temperature of the tissue being scanned. Improper use can lead to harm.

Not saying they should be illegal to own or purchase by consumers, but you really shouldn't be scanning things for shits and giggles. Remember, not that long ago, x-rays were considered routine and harmless.

Re: New Startup Raises $100M for Portable Ultrasound

#33

Post by sjg007 » Mon, Nov 03, 2014, 5:05 PM UTC

I think a network of sensors is an interesting, like what you see in Extant. A lot of the ultrasound technicians job is to move the wand around to get images and adjust the frequency to see different things. They do also push down a lot. When we had our babies, I never understood why they just didn't drape a bunch of sensors over and run a single scan that calculates everything.

Re: New Startup Raises $100M for Portable Ultrasound

#34

Post by sjg007 » Mon, Nov 03, 2014, 5:07 PM UTC

pak wrote: post #19

seren wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference with GE Vscan seems to be the 3D reconstruction capabilities. However I am not sure if the 3D is really needed. I always understood the 3D ultrasound reconstruction as a gimmick (at least in obstetrics) to show parent the head of their future baby.

Most of the ultrasound-using doctors that I've talked to in med school seem to agree with you; if there's a real need for 3D imaging today, doctors (in 1st world countries at least) send the patient for a CT. The cost/benefit for 3D ultrasound doesn't compare favorably to CT because it is a much noisier imaging process and it takes just about as long as a CT. That's why if you Google image search for "3D ultrasound",…

good luck trying to ct scan a pregnant woman!

Re: New Startup Raises $100M for Portable Ultrasound

#35

Post by refurb » Mon, Nov 03, 2014, 5:41 PM UTC

new299 wrote: post #21

sitkack wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My only experience with Roche is that they buy promising new technologies and shutter them. First they purchase the product, then they invest, then they purchase the company then they shut it down.

This is really interesting. They certainly have a reputation for killing 454. What other companies have they done this with?

I wouldn't say Roche "killed" 454. Illumina is absolutely dominating the sequencing market. I would say killing something that isn't profitable is a good business decision.

Re: New Startup Raises $100M for Portable Ultrasound

#36

Post by legomylibrum » Mon, Nov 03, 2014, 5:47 PM UTC

new299 wrote: post #6

Rothberg is something of a character. His two DNA sequencing companies (454 and Ion torrent) have both had what I would consider successful exits (solid to Roche and Life technologies respectively). But more importantly both products made their way into the hands of consumers (which is actually rare for DNA sequencing startups). However after acquisition both products failed to gain significant traction (Roche has ju…

While 454 may not have much traction anymore, Ion Torrent is coming out with a new series of devices (the Proton iirc?) and they're competing pretty well with Illumina in the cheap sequencing market. It's something, anyways.

I was thinking of trying to make a smartphone-powered ultrasound awhile back and looked into it, and these devices don't look too complicated. You put a piezo in a little box, and cycle it to send/receive vibration in the form of sound. The software to decode the signal into an image is the hard part. But if it's Rothberg behind this...well, I'll take his word for it being a hard thing to make low-cost.

Re: New Startup Raises $100M for Portable Ultrasound

#37

Post by new299 » Mon, Nov 03, 2014, 5:54 PM UTC

refurb wrote: post #35

new299 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is really interesting. They certainly have a reputation for killing 454. What other companies have they done this with?

I wouldn't say Roche "killed" 454. Illumina is absolutely dominating the sequencing market. I would say killing something that isn't profitable is a good business decision.

You might not, I might not. But they do have somewhat of a reputation for not executing well on the 454 technology. It has been said that they failed to scale out what was a fundamentally sound platform. That they didn't really push on density to the increase device throughput as much as they could have.

The truth maybe that the technology just has fundamental limitations. But I'd would say that's not objectively clear.

The Illumina (Solexa) platform also had significant limitations, it took a lot of platform development to get it where it is today. In contrast Illumina have executed quite well, providing systematic improvements to the Solexa platform.

Re: New Startup Raises $100M for Portable Ultrasound

#38

Post by sitkack » Mon, Nov 03, 2014, 9:08 PM UTC

new299 wrote: post #21

sitkack wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My only experience with Roche is that they buy promising new technologies and shutter them. First they purchase the product, then they invest, then they purchase the company then they shut it down.

This is really interesting. They certainly have a reputation for killing 454. What other companies have they done this with?

This what it felt like with Combimatrix http://www.evaluategroup.com/Universal/View.aspx?type=Story&... who are still around but had a pivot and change of leadership.

Re: New Startup Raises $100M for Portable Ultrasound

#39

Post by pak » Mon, Nov 03, 2014, 9:14 PM UTC

sjg007 wrote: post #34

pak wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the ultrasound-using doctors that I've talked to in med school seem to agree with you; if there's a real need for 3D imaging today, doctors (in 1st world countries at least) send the patient for a CT. The cost/benefit for 3D ultrasound doesn't compare favorably to CT because it is a much noisier imaging process and it takes just about as long as a CT. That's why if you Google image search for "3D ultrasound",…

good luck trying to ct scan a pregnant woman!

True, but you've just emphasized my (and the GP's) point: 3D ultrasound is probably most relevant for pregnant women and 3rd world situations.

Incidentally, besides the abdomen and pelvis, you can safely CT just about any other part of a pregnant woman.

Re: New Startup Raises $100M for Portable Ultrasound

#40

Post by chuckcode » Tue, Nov 04, 2014, 8:45 PM UTC

new299 wrote: post #6

Rothberg is something of a character. His two DNA sequencing companies (454 and Ion torrent) have both had what I would consider successful exits (solid to Roche and Life technologies respectively). But more importantly both products made their way into the hands of consumers (which is actually rare for DNA sequencing startups). However after acquisition both products failed to gain significant traction (Roche has ju…

I've worked with Rothberg and he is certainly a different than most people you meet in a day. Incredibly gifted with technological vision, business savvy and marketing skills. He also has the ability to put together an incredibly talented team and keep them focused.

Ion Torrent didn't put Illumina out of business or anything but it did define a new market segment in high throughput DNA sequencing for small to mid size labs. Ion Torrent's PGM is like the PC of DNA sequencing to Illumina's mainframe HiSeq and forced Illumina to respond with their MiSeq machine. I for one am very excited to see the democratization of DNA sequencing as it gets more available to smaller labs and individuals.

Can't wait to see what he and the team pull off on this one as we certainly need a few more breakthroughs in the clinic both in price and ease of use!