Capitalism Has Gone Off the Rails • Hacker News Board

Re: Capitalism Has Gone Off the Rails

#251

Post by dionidium » Mon, Nov 03, 2014, 4:56 PM UTC

randomsearch wrote: post #249

dionidium wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

or are homeless because they can't afford housing, or end up eating what they find in someone's trash because they can't afford to buy food There's a bit of a straw man or, at least, mischaracterization hidden in here. It's true that the U.S. does a pretty poor job of dealing with the mentally ill and those at the very bottom who simply cannot take care of themselves. And I think if you push people, even those on the…

> But I never feared missing a meal. That's not the experience of most poor folks in the U.S. I'm not an expert on the U.S. However, I have seen people digging through trash for food in Atlanta. I have also seen the extreme state of homelessness in Philadelphia, and the problems in San Francisco. It is certainly true that many people in the UK struggle to afford food [1], and given that the US has a much greater disp…

Yes, I've seen them, too. And there's a risk here that it will sound like I'm moving the goal posts around so that I'm right by definition. But that's not what I'm trying to do. There are of course those at the bottom who are chronically homeless. Those are the folks I was referring to in my first paragraph. Yes, you will see them digging in dumpsters.

But this is not the typical experience. Most poor people never end up homeless. And those who do are typically homeless for a short period of time (and do get help).

Re: Capitalism Has Gone Off the Rails

#252

Post by unprepare » Mon, Nov 03, 2014, 4:58 PM UTC

msandford wrote: post #221

Zigurd wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In theory that sounds great, but what happens if everyone says "fuck it!" and just starts taking the basic income? That's actually an argument for basic income. It's the mirror image of money politics, only its actually democratic.

I want to write a really sarcastic comment, but that won't really achieve anything. I suspect that either I really don't get something, or that you really don't get something but I can't tell which. You said "That's actually an argument for basic income" in response to my statement "if everyone stops working and starts taking basic income" which I don't understand. I thought I laid out a fairly clear argument that if…

lets think about it. Basic income is implemented tomorrow. First, only the people making up to the amount of the basic income would be willing to quit their jobs - anyone making more than needed to survive would certainly continue wanting to maximize their earnings.

We would then have a vacuum of a large number of poorly payed jobs that are now in demand - would this not immediately raise the wages for these jobs? Would employers not have to raise wages to attract workers? They would either have to raise wages or automate in some way - this would be a big shakeup for companies, but with basic income even people losing jobs or companies going under would not be a huge deal since basic needs will be met for all those people

So what if everyone quit their jobs and withdrew from the workforce all at once? Well, i think that wont happen - Would warren buffet quit his job? Would professional athletes? actors? Corporate accountants? Would your average HNer close up his startup? Would the bureaucrats running basic income quit? Would the bank tellers stop processing the checks?

If they all did of course that would be chaos - food would immediately stop getting produced, water would stop flowing - sounds like a serious problem that hundreds of millions of people now have all the time and motivation to solve - but lets be honest, the likelihood of EVERYONE quitting their job is laughable, at worst the wages for most jobs will raise and some jobs will more rapidly be automated

Re: Capitalism Has Gone Off the Rails

#253

Post by randomsearch » Mon, Nov 03, 2014, 5:07 PM UTC

dionidium wrote: post #251

randomsearch wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But I never feared missing a meal. That's not the experience of most poor folks in the U.S. I'm not an expert on the U.S. However, I have seen people digging through trash for food in Atlanta. I have also seen the extreme state of homelessness in Philadelphia, and the problems in San Francisco. It is certainly true that many people in the UK struggle to afford food [1], and given that the US has a much greater disp…

Yes, I've seen them, too. And there's a risk here that it will sound like I'm moving the goal posts around so that I'm right by definition. But that's not what I'm trying to do. There are of course those at the bottom who are chronically homeless. Those are the folks I was referring to in my first paragraph. Yes, you will see them digging in dumpsters. But this is not the typical experience. Most poor people never en…

ok, I see.

It might be surprising to hear, then, that those people using food banks in the UK by no means consist entirely of the chronically or mentally ill. I'd say that would be a small minority. Most of them simply use food banks because they can't afford to buy food - the number one reason being their welfare payments being ended or delayed. See, in the UK in the process of dismantling our welfare state and I look across the Atlantic to see our fate. :-s

Re: Capitalism Has Gone Off the Rails

#254

Post by allthatglitters » Mon, Nov 03, 2014, 5:08 PM UTC

badname wrote: post #167

james1071 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is more than one thing going on. Balance sheet recession. Mistaken policy response-austerity, German unhelpfulness in Eurozone. Globalization-i.e. cheap labour Automation Financial industry acting against interests of wider economy.

There are a lot of going on but the point is to single out symptoms from root causes. Otherwise we will wallow trying to deal with symptoms forever. Dunno if anyone has yet mentioned one of the basic contradictions inherent in capitalism which could very well be at the root of what we experience. Means of production are private (factories, etc) and the owners as almost all players in capitalism take care to maximize…

>Means of production are private (factories, etc) and the owners as almost all players in capitalism take care to maximize _their_ profit and not society's well being.No one forces you to purchase what's "produced". If you purchased a Windows computer - and so helped Mr. Gate's well being - that was your choice! The list of examples is long. As to "Windows" - whether society is better off ...

Re: Capitalism Has Gone Off the Rails

#255

Post by mqsiuser » Mon, Nov 03, 2014, 5:14 PM UTC

badname wrote: post #223

mqsiuser wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A German here, I probably read Spiegel for >10 years (from ~2000 to beginning of 2014): They are kind of "left" which reflects in their articles "raises a second narrative about inequality". They'd support basic income any time. The Spiegel has turned into yellow press lately, I am surprised to see a (english) article on HN. Thank you HN for unveiling that there are some spots in Europe that are doing fine and that t…

"The Spiegel has turned into yellow press lately" that's your very own personal opinion but the way you serve it (as absolute truth) is yellow. Not to add in various other mishaps in your argument (eg "kind of "left"", thanks for unveiling ...). In short that's nice propaganda (albeit not very effective here).

1. No, there are a lot of sources, that report the same. SPON (Spiegel Online) turned from being a good source for news into click-bait (~beginning 2014). The editorial staff changed: Didn't the editor in chief come from Germany's most famous yellow press gazette (die Bild) [1]?

2. You have a basically American audience on HN. I underpinned "kind of left" with the "basic income discussion", which -with no doubt- the Spiegel has a (very) positive stance for it (just search Google, the German terminology is "(bedingungsloses) Grundeinkommen").

3. No, it's not my opinion v.s. your's (that would be deficient)

[1] It's the co-editor ... and his appointment "was received with great controversy within der Spiegel": http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolaus_Blome

He is also the one responsible for "the online-resort", so the articles on their web site.

Re: Capitalism Has Gone Off the Rails

#256

Post by yummyfajitas » Mon, Nov 03, 2014, 5:15 PM UTC

SCHiM wrote: post #242

yummyfajitas wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what you mean by "serious mental illness" or "way of life". You seem to be describing negative feelings, specifically a longing aroused by qualities someone else has. That's envy, according to the standard definition. If you'd rather use the a different term to avoid inspiring negative feelings about me, feel free to suggest one. For the remainder of this post I'll use the term "Mind State X" to describe…

I'm of the opinion that, as with all things, the degree to which something happens is relevant. I'm saying that the way these people live, 'as if in perpetual envy', is no longer a form of envy. It's something different. And yes, this means that inequality is bad in and of itself. What the difference is is clearly outlined in the report I previously posted: "It is abundantly clear that the chronic stress of strugglin…

And yes, this means that inequality is bad in and of itself.

If inequality were bad in and of itself, then you wouldn't need to refer to Mind State X to explain why it is bad.

I.e., suppose inequality doesn't cause Mind State X. Do you still care? If so, why?

I'll stop you right there, in no way is your sexual life in any way comparable to the way poverty impacts the mental wellbeing of people.

Suppose, hypothetically, I dig into the psychology literature and discover that the distribution of sexual partners causes Mind State Y which is just as bad as Mind State X. Would that make restricting the actions of others moral?

More concretely: what specific psychological properties determine that Mind State X justifies restricting the actions of others, but not Mind State Y? And if I could dig into the psychology literature and show that Mind State Y satisfied those properties, would you change your opinion?

I also postulate that you aren't really recognizing how devastating Mind State Y can be. Your Box 9 quote describes quite accurately my impression of the lives of less attractive men. Feel free to browse various "manosphere" subreddits (e.g. "red pill", seduction) to read many examples of this.

Re: Capitalism Has Gone Off the Rails

#257

Post by barbudorojo » Mon, Nov 03, 2014, 5:16 PM UTC

msandford wrote: post #221

Zigurd wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In theory that sounds great, but what happens if everyone says "fuck it!" and just starts taking the basic income? That's actually an argument for basic income. It's the mirror image of money politics, only its actually democratic.

I want to write a really sarcastic comment, but that won't really achieve anything. I suspect that either I really don't get something, or that you really don't get something but I can't tell which. You said "That's actually an argument for basic income" in response to my statement "if everyone stops working and starts taking basic income" which I don't understand. I thought I laid out a fairly clear argument that if…

"if everyone stops working and starts taking basic income"

There is a pretty neat solution, if enconomy goes down then basic income goes down in such a way that no many people would like to be on basic income. If this seems harsh, I think that some force must be applied to restore the system.

Anyway, to control any kind of system we have to take into account the lags in the feedback to make the system stable. If all people quit their jobs at once then there is no force (cops, military, and so) to restore the system to its orginal state and we lose control. We need to study how elastic is this desire to quit your job and act in accordance.

Re: Capitalism Has Gone Off the Rails

#258

Post by dragonwriter » Mon, Nov 03, 2014, 5:21 PM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #198

ap22213 wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your continual use of the word 'envy' belittles the psychological affects of poverty. Your use of that word seems to imply that poor people can somehow eradicate their psychological suffering through positive thinking or something similar. It's the "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" approach to reducing poverty, as US conservatives so frequently say. It is these clever uses of words that aim to reduce very complex…

And yet, I can't shake the feeling that if you took away all my money and property, I would be employed and back in an apartment in a month. What's a guy to think, when folks complain about how its too hard to move, to get an education, to save money, when I know I can do it? Its hard to empathize with people with an outlook so different, that they can't imagine working their way out of poverty. Because I can.

> And yet, I can't shake the feeling that if you took away all my money and property, I would be employed and back in an apartment in a month.

Perhaps. Certainly, the advantages of a relatively privileged condition aren't limited to money and property, but include lots of deeper advantages that (among other things) are useful for the gain of money and property. That's among the reasons why generational poverty is is generational, and requires active effort to break the cycle rather than simply the absence of active effort to maintain it.

> What's a guy to think, when folks complain about how its too hard to move, to get an education, to save money, when I know I can do it?

You could maybe use that ability to get an education you are so proud of to learn enough to have some broader basis for understanding the world than simply your experience of what you are able to do given your own particular circumstances.

Re: Capitalism Has Gone Off the Rails

#259

Post by allthatglitters » Mon, Nov 03, 2014, 5:21 PM UTC

jasonwocky wrote: post #157

brc wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Capitalism still works fine, because it's not a designed system, it's not a central plan. In fact, countries like the USA should give it a try again. It worked quite well for them last time.

> Capitalism still works fine, because it's not a designed system, it's not a central plan. What logic is this? "Anything which is not a designed system works fine"?

F.A. Hayek wrote in The Fatal Conceit, “the curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.

Re: Capitalism Has Gone Off the Rails

#260

Post by barbudorojo » Mon, Nov 03, 2014, 5:28 PM UTC

radmuzom wrote: post #22

Animats wrote: post #17

This is an important article, but I doubt there will be a useful discussion of it here. The developed world has incredible productive capacity. With 1% of the workforce in agriculture and 8% in manufacturing, the US produces as much stuff as China. There are no significant shortages of any manufactured good anywhere in the developed world. Quality is pretty good across the board, too. This is unique in history. That'…

Great comment. The standard argument given by capitalists is that the "pie" will keep on growing, so while the existing owners of capital will get richer, it will also lift others out of poverty. Why is this not happening any more? Is it because earlier automation used to create "new" jobs which require labour, while now automation is removing the need for labour at all?

I don't know if the pie is growing or not. In my country they are going to include sex trading in the GPD and 23% of the econmy is supposed to be black money (money that don't pay any taxes). Statistics about numbers of jobs are crook because change every day what's mean to be employed so there is no a real historical record to compare or see trends. Also if you pay 50$/moth and you are below 30, you get into the health system and later will receive money for jobless and other resources, so is not clear if there is really creation of jobs or people are paying for themselves to receive more tomorrow from the government.