Capitalism Has Gone Off the Rails • Hacker News Board

Re: Capitalism Has Gone Off the Rails

#181

Post by zipfle » Mon, Nov 03, 2014, 2:20 PM UTC

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #43

RangerScience wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We do have a model that has successfully demonstrating certain principles which may be capable of addressing this problem: Burning Man. Bear with me for a second. I'd say (and then pointing out my lack of formal or amateurish study of economics) that the issue you're pointing at is that capitalism doesn't function well in a post-scarcity environment, which we're entering. This is because our means of determining valu…

> the issue you're pointing at is that capitalism doesn't function well in a post-scarcity environment, which we're entering. A literally post-scarcity environment is not a problem because it makes the price of everything zero. Food is free, shelter is free, medical care is free, you don't need a job. Do whatever you want all day, it's not a problem. The problem is that what we're entering is not a post-scarcity envi…

I've heard the idea that banks are keeping foreclosed houses off the market a few times. Do you know of a reference that describes the scale of that?

Re: Capitalism Has Gone Off the Rails

#182

Post by ssharp » Mon, Nov 03, 2014, 2:21 PM UTC

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #140

wooter wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> subpar foodstuffs because fruits and vegetables cost way more than dollar menu cheeseburgers per calorie. what? not even remotely true. i frequently buy 6 lb bags of frozen broccoli/cauliflower/carrot for 8 bucks. There is cheap, healthy food out there, some people just aren't buying it.

6 lbs of broccoli at 23 kcal / 100 grams is about 621 kcal for $8, or 77kcal / dollar. A $1 cheeseburger is 350 kcal, so $8 would buy you 2800 kcal - and I'm sure there's products with even higher calories per dollar. (note this is off a random website, may be inaccurate) You have to remember that for a nontrivial percentage of people - like the homeless - this is a survival situation, where 'healthy' has a much lowe…

Thanks to couponing, I can get most frozen veggies and rice for free or very close to free. A month ago, I secured a year's worth of toilet paper and shampoo and only had to pay the sales tax on it.

But these "free" products are going to me, my wife, and our family. We're both well-educated, have good jobs, and live a comfortable life. What ultimately gets me the free stuff is time, access to technology (computer, printer, etc.), relationships built to acquire extra coupons, ability to drive to a nice suburban store that runs deals and doubles coupons.

I guess what I'm getting at is that a lot of people don't have access to get these good deals or aren't prepared for them. In many urban environments, if you don't have a car, your only access to groceries are small convenience stores or very small local grocers, who tend to have bad prices, bad selection, old items, etc. Either that, or you take a bus to the bigger grocery store, wasting a lot of time and having to adhere to the bus' schedule.

Re: Capitalism Has Gone Off the Rails

#183

Post by Cowicide » Mon, Nov 03, 2014, 2:24 PM UTC

dublinclontarf wrote: post #115

atmosx wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry but until I see absolute numbers on a paper where the statistical analysis is detailed enough I'll keep my view. Also, note that Europe (richest content) is undergoing a never-ending crisis which has broadened extremely the poor class, especially in South Europe and Ireland. But things in Britain and France are not looking good either.

The crisis in Europe is caused by the continued use of the Euro and all the policies being applied in an attempt to ensure it's existence. Economics, and capitalism in particular are not a zero-sum game http://www.povertycure.org/issues/the-zero-sum-fallacy/

There's certainly ideas and actions to respect from povertycure.org

However, povertycure.org seems to be embraced by quite a few neo-libertarians, neo-cons and the specific page you linked to is high on platitudes and fairly low on facts, in my opinion.

Between the strange mix of a libertarian worship of a unicorn "free market" combined with religious overtones, they strike me as a somewhat confused group with quite a few ulterior motives running in the background.

For example, this charmer from povertycure.org's board:

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2009/oct/21/executive-pa...

That's not to say I think povertycure.org is all bad and I disagree with everything they all say and do, but I take them collectively with a grain of salt. For example, I think Michael Fairbanks has some very smart ideas here and there, but I'm still wary of anyone that embraces a "free market" blanket solution to so many issues as well.

As far as the crisis in Europe goes, I think the damage that austerity measures have caused aren't given enough credence by a lot of the corporate media for obvious reasons.

Re: Capitalism Has Gone Off the Rails

#184

Post by moron4hire » Mon, Nov 03, 2014, 2:25 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #50

psychometry wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A third of the population in the richest nation on earth lives in poverty. According to you, that's not a problem because even poorer people in Bangladesh are slightly less poor than they would be if American companies had never employed them. What kind of callous person could look around at all the suffering and think this system's working great? Or do you not look around at all, holed up in a tacky mansion of your…

95% of the biggest nation in the world (or maybe second biggest, no one really knows the exact pop of India and China) lives in far deeper poverty than poor americans. Many of them experience actual suffering - not enough food, no flush toilet, no power. What, precisely, do you believe poor Americans are suffering from? The only concrete answer I usually hear is envy (I.e. "oh noes the inequality"). http://economix.b…

While I think your point is valid (that the majority of suffering is not in the United States), I just want to point out that there are still some people who don't have enough food or basic utilities in the States, and I'm not even referring to the homeless problem that some cities have. Look to deeply depressed rural areas like small mountain-pass towns post-industrialism, and look to the poorest of the poor inner city neighborhoods. Hunger, illiteracy, disease, these haven't been eradicated yet.

Re: Capitalism Has Gone Off the Rails

#185

Post by yummyfajitas » Mon, Nov 03, 2014, 2:48 PM UTC

narrowrail wrote: post #174

yummyfajitas wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The premise underlying my post is the belief that all humans have equal moral value. I gather you don't hold this view and therefore will disagree. However, if you favor some sort of protectionism, I'm curious why you think I should care about poor Americans. Supposing I were to give up humanism and revert to tribalism, as you seem to have done, why would I allow poor Americans into my tribe? Why not simply define my…

As everyday Americans, we simply do not have the power to directly influence other countries. The world does not operate as a border-less, humanistic, and unified entity. It is not a matter of protectionism and/or tribalism, but practicality. I don't believe it is very easy to influence politics outside of my state, let alone the country. IMO, comparing the plights of people across these 'imaginary borders' is of lit…

We don't have the power to influence our own country either - your vote simply doesn't matter.

In any case, I'm not advocating for political change overseas. I'm simply advocating against threatening people with violence for engaging in mutually agreeable trade. I.e., if I want to hire an Indian person to work as my secretary, it's not right to forbid this in order to force me to hire an American.

Re: Capitalism Has Gone Off the Rails

#186

Post by gibsonf1 » Mon, Nov 03, 2014, 2:48 PM UTC

What is interesting about the article is that it clearly points out how destructive the Central Banks are in trying to manipulate the economy, but ends with blaming the private bankers. It is abundantly clear from economic history that Keynesian policies of money printing and interest rate manipulation don't work and in fact have never worked - they are the problem.

Re: Capitalism Has Gone Off the Rails

#187

Post by maratd » Mon, Nov 03, 2014, 2:49 PM UTC

bildung wrote: post #86

adventured wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hong Kong and Singapore are the two freest economies. They have very minimal welfare states, with relatively light regulation and taxation. Their wealth creation and economic growth have been astounding over the last ten years. Meanwhile, most of Europe has seen zero GDP growth in real terms since 2004/05. France has seen an average of sub 1% nominal GDP growth for a decade; negative in real terms. Japan, which is a…

Hong Kong and Singapore are the two freest economies. They have very minimal welfare states, with relatively light regulation and taxation. Their wealth creation and economic growth have been astounding over the last ten years. Hong Kong and Singapore had an astounding growth of 2.9% and 3.9%, while socialist China had a miserable 7.7%? I don't get the impression you looked at the numbers at all, or did you?

In what way is China socialist? It's a kleptocracy and an aggressively capitalist one at that.

Re: Capitalism Has Gone Off the Rails

#188

Post by yummyfajitas » Mon, Nov 03, 2014, 2:53 PM UTC

_broody wrote: post #180

spindritf wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is sad that completely factual, sourced and on-topic comments get downvoted on HN just because they go against the political beliefs of downvoters who don't even bother responding.

No, I don't get what yummyfajitas is getting from his own sources. The Oregon experiment article he linked to stated, verbatim, that 25% more people reported themselves healthier thanks to increased health coverage, and 10% better mental health. Yet he is using this link to claim better health insurance does nothing for poor people. Also, using a pre-2008 crisis census report to argue that everything is fine today is…

Measured health outcomes did not go up, only self reported health did. Further, the increase in self reported health was present even before people had a chance to go to the doctor.

Better health insurance makes people feel better. That's not the same thing as making them healthier.

If you think the data changed between 2008 and the next AHS survey, feel free to prove it. Or just call me a troll, far less work.

Re: Capitalism Has Gone Off the Rails

#189

Post by kyllo » Mon, Nov 03, 2014, 2:56 PM UTC

atmosx wrote: post #66

mattmcknight wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not an important article, it is a rant against people with "tacky mansions", a turn of phrase that is more indicative of the author's point of view than the other conventional points about not understanding creative destruction. I think it is this overly nationalist view of economics that needs to die, not "capitalism". There is not less productive work to go around, it's just not being done in the US. We are…

[...] the number of rich people in the world is growing . Thats because many more people become poor. I'm not saying they are directly exploited but indirectly they are, because it is a zero-sum game.

It's not inherently a zero-sum game. It's just that the rich are doing everything in their power to capture all the surplus, which makes it feel like a zero-sum game for the rest of us.

Re: Capitalism Has Gone Off the Rails

#190

Post by washadjeffmad » Mon, Nov 03, 2014, 2:57 PM UTC

wooter wrote: post #92

zanny wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is tremendous long run psychological and physical harm associated with living paycheck to paycheck in perpetual debt having to eat subpar foodstuffs because fruits and vegetables cost way more than dollar menu cheeseburgers per calorie. And if you don't have a working kitchen you can't cook farmers market produce. And that is at best. A lot of us are unemployed, and families are collapsing in on themselves as y…

> subpar foodstuffs because fruits and vegetables cost way more than dollar menu cheeseburgers per calorie. what? not even remotely true. i frequently buy 6 lb bags of frozen broccoli/cauliflower/carrot for 8 bucks. There is cheap, healthy food out there, some people just aren't buying it.

You're totally right, the product exists, but access is still a problem. Mobility is a tremendous issue to people in poverty, which is as intended in some cities with populations with large wealth gaps. If a family has one car, the person working may take it for the day for work, leaving everyone else at home with only their feet or public transportation to get around. Unless they can purchase cheap produce in their neighborhood, it may take hours to get to that place, buy what they need, and return before it can be prepared. Imagine taking a bus to Costco to do the weekly shopping (payday dependent, in this context). Certainly if their life is planned around this event it becomes more reasonable, but it will be less convenient than walking to a corner market or local fast food joint and spending a few dollars to feed everyone.

Have you ever had your car break down? Last winter, mine did less than a mile from my house on the interstate in the middle of the night, and I was completely stranded. Relatively, I travel hundreds of linear miles a month and have never felt that way, because "I'm only ever a few hours away from home." Your world gets a helluva lot smaller when you don't have mobility, and anyone who doesn't appreciate that really can't understand the problem with calling pulling up farmer's markets in a 20 mile radius on Google a solution.