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Capitalism Has Gone Off the Rails

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Re: Capitalism Has Gone Off the Rails

#151

Post by rayiner »

jasonisalive wrote: post #111
rayiner wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the richest and most technologically advanced societies in the world, consisting of the most educated and most productive free people in the world, people who through democratic institutions can shape their societies as they see fit, are converging to the same basic model, and you want me to believe that this isn't a ringing endorsement of that model?

In a word, yes. Although: 1) I don't necessarily agree with your claim "through democratic institutions can shape their societies as they see it" - democracies are quite a bit messier than that. 2) I wouldn't use the word "converging" - I would probably say becoming stuck in similar states of sub-optimal social organisation. And to touch on your other suggestions, I would say that, while these are certainly the riche…

The rules of economics do not dictate outcomes. Government intervention can move economies to different equilibriums. It's just how the rules of physics don't necessitate that people give up on the idea of flying. They dictate what one has to do to fly--not what one's end-goal should be.

Re: Capitalism Has Gone Off the Rails

#152

Post by amelius »

dublinclontarf wrote: post #115
atmosx wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry but until I see absolute numbers on a paper where the statistical analysis is detailed enough I'll keep my view. Also, note that Europe (richest content) is undergoing a never-ending crisis which has broadened extremely the poor class, especially in South Europe and Ireland. But things in Britain and France are not looking good either.

The crisis in Europe is caused by the continued use of the Euro and all the policies being applied in an attempt to ensure it's existence. Economics, and capitalism in particular are not a zero-sum game http://www.povertycure.org/issues/the-zero-sum-fallacy/

> and capitalism in particular are not a zero-sum game

Look at it this way. Money causes corporations to become powerful entities (through propaganda, lobbying, internal R&D, etc.), and this reinforces the loop. There is a selective component, in that competition leads to corporate casualties. In other words, capitalism causes agglutination of money. Hence, capitalism leads to some people becoming rich, and most people becoming poor (because they are now out of business).

The effect will be directly noticeable to people here on HN when Google invents strong AI, and puts every programmer in the nation out of business :)

Re: Capitalism Has Gone Off the Rails

#153

Post by rayiner »

jasonwocky wrote: post #150
AmirS2 wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There was hope that the Japanese would figure out something. 25 years later, they haven't. They've built up their safety net and put money into infrastructure projects, so that fewer people are suffering. That's the best they could come up with. Improved safety net and infrastructure projects so fewer people are suffering? Sounds terrible. Please don't sign me up. /sarc Seriously, what is wrong with improving the s…

I don't think he's saying that there's anything "wrong" with it. Just that it's not enough to really kickstart the faltering economic engine back into its top gear.

Japan's population isn't growing--why do they need more than tepid economic growth?

Re: Capitalism Has Gone Off the Rails

#154

Post by qwtel »

zanny wrote: post #77
Animats wrote: post #17

This is an important article, but I doubt there will be a useful discussion of it here. The developed world has incredible productive capacity. With 1% of the workforce in agriculture and 8% in manufacturing, the US produces as much stuff as China. There are no significant shortages of any manufactured good anywhere in the developed world. Quality is pretty good across the board, too. This is unique in history. That'…

> We have no successful model for dealing with this. Canada seems to have had pretty good success with that basic income town. And no major western democracy has really attempted it yet. I like it because it lets you have a completely deregulated economy, because both employer and employee would be participating in voluntary negotiation without a huge bias towards the employer - when one side is starving and need she…

I like the idea of basic income, but I'm skeptical about how many problems it can actually solve. Your depiction almost makes it sound miraculous (with a bit of social romanticism), while ignoring the problems it could eventually create. Apart form that we are a long way from having a serious discussion about it, as it's just too alien a concept for most people, including those who would need it.

Re: Capitalism Has Gone Off the Rails

#155

Post by rayiner »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #50
psychometry wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A third of the population in the richest nation on earth lives in poverty. According to you, that's not a problem because even poorer people in Bangladesh are slightly less poor than they would be if American companies had never employed them. What kind of callous person could look around at all the suffering and think this system's working great? Or do you not look around at all, holed up in a tacky mansion of your…

95% of the biggest nation in the world (or maybe second biggest, no one really knows the exact pop of India and China) lives in far deeper poverty than poor americans. Many of them experience actual suffering - not enough food, no flush toilet, no power. What, precisely, do you believe poor Americans are suffering from? The only concrete answer I usually hear is envy (I.e. "oh noes the inequality"). http://economix.b…

Why should we care about people in India or China? We're entitled to shape our society the way we want, and to address the local ills we see fit to address. Our predecessors worked very hard so that we would be richer than India and China and have the luxury of figuring out how to better the lives of urban "poor" who have cable TV.

Re: Capitalism Has Gone Off the Rails

#156

Post by ams6110 »

ivanca wrote: post #72
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the issue you're pointing at is that capitalism doesn't function well in a post-scarcity environment, which we're entering. A literally post-scarcity environment is not a problem because it makes the price of everything zero. Food is free, shelter is free, medical care is free, you don't need a job. Do whatever you want all day, it's not a problem. The problem is that what we're entering is not a post-scarcity envi…

Then the solution is pretty simple, doesn't it? make it illegal to foreclosure a house for more than 6 months, an "use it or lose it" policy.

Or even simpler, don't bail out businesses that make stupid decisions.

Re: Capitalism Has Gone Off the Rails

#157

Post by jasonwocky »

brc wrote: post #123
adventured wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's because the US is no longer a Capitalist nation; as such it no longer derives the maximum benefits of Capitalism. It was a mixed economy 30 or 40 years ago. Today it's a welfare state that depends on its central bank to remain solvent, with hyper regulation, high levels of debt, and high levels of taxation. The number of economic regulations and general laws passed each year in the US is truly astounding, and li…

Capitalism still works fine, because it's not a designed system, it's not a central plan. In fact, countries like the USA should give it a try again. It worked quite well for them last time.

> Capitalism still works fine, because it's not a designed system, it's not a central plan.

What logic is this? "Anything which is not a designed system works fine"?

Re: Capitalism Has Gone Off the Rails

#158

Post by jasonwocky »

rayiner wrote: post #153
jasonwocky wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think he's saying that there's anything "wrong" with it. Just that it's not enough to really kickstart the faltering economic engine back into its top gear.

Japan's population isn't growing--why do they need more than tepid economic growth?

The population of Japan may not need it, but some capitalists may need to be convinced of their preferred system's inherent immortality.

Re: Capitalism Has Gone Off the Rails

#159

Post by bernardlunn »

Animats wrote: post #17

This is an important article, but I doubt there will be a useful discussion of it here. The developed world has incredible productive capacity. With 1% of the workforce in agriculture and 8% in manufacturing, the US produces as much stuff as China. There are no significant shortages of any manufactured good anywhere in the developed world. Quality is pretty good across the board, too. This is unique in history. That'…

but I doubt there will be a useful discussion of it here.

wrong on that front

Re: Capitalism Has Gone Off the Rails

#160

Post by simonh »

curiouscats wrote: post #142
simonh wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with your point that capitalism is about markets, technically markets for capital, but markets for goods and services are also very important for a high functioning economy. We have those. To demonstrate this, let's looks at some alternative models such as those in Russia and the Chinese domestic markets, and contrats those with the west. The Chinese and Russian ssytems are very corporatist. In both cases hug…

I would say it is true in most places in human history, those with power consolidate their power and use that power to take advantage of those without power (or very little power). That is the current system in the USA. I would agree in the USA it is less than in many other countries today. So I agree the USA is less bad. But it is bad. And it is getting worse the last 20 years. And it is getting less and less capita…

I read it, and +1 because even though I don't agree with everything you say, at least it makes sense and presents arguments I can engage with. That's valuable.

I think a problem we have in the west (I'm a Brit) is that our generation has inherited a capitalist free market system under the rule of law, but we're treating it like a rich kid that doesn't value or truly understand our inheritance and doesn't manage it responsibly.

I don't think the situation is as bad as you say. But then my wife is Chinese and I have a good udnerstanding of how bad things can be. When people talk about the erosion of the rule of law and corporatist policies in the west I have a counter-example I can use for comparison and I see a much more nuanced picture in the west. Yes we do need to recalibrate our social contract, particularly in the US, but we do have the institutions and mechanisms available to do that. At least we are capable of having the debate here without getting censored or thrown in jail.

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