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Capitalism Has Gone Off the Rails

spiegel.de

21–30 of 310 posts

Re: Capitalism Has Gone Off the Rails

#21
There's a lot of conflation in this article between distribution and economic growth, which I think arises from the Spiegel's European perspective.

Going back to the start of the DAX tracking (mid-2011), we see okay performance in German DAX index, stagnation for the French CAC and British FTSE, and strong performance in the US S&P 500 and Japanese Nikkei. [1] Eurozone unemployment has soared into double digits of late, while in the US and Japan it is converging with the natural rate, The economic situation in Europe is truly awful, in contrast to the US and Japan where growth has been respectable. But you would never have guessed this from the tone of the article.

The article raises a second narrative about inequality. Fair enough! But this is an orthogonal issue to Europe's economic malaise. The US is infamous at not distributing the benefits of growth. In the US, we have one thing that's working (growth) and one thing that's not (inequality). This is due to many institutional problems and governance decisions and it will be a lot of work to improve the situation.

The thing I found alarming about this was the way they denigrated stimulus. This is an area of major divergence between Japan/US and Europe. Nominal GDP growth, the measure of the 'easiness' of money (it's the sum of all money trading hands), has stagnated under the European Central Bank (ECB) while the US Fed (FOMC) has used stimulus to keep it growing in the United States [2]. If anyone believes the central banks have "run out of ammunition" as the article suggests, look what happened just last Friday in Japan: The BoJ announced unexpectedly high stimulus and the Nikkei instantly soared 4%, despite the fact that interest rates were already 0. [3]

The ECB needs to be more like the FOMC and BoJ. The Spiegel seems to think the opposite. It seems like the ECB's policy reflects this hawkish European perspective. And that's scary for Europe.

PS It's true that Japan has been stagnating for decades. That is likely related to the ultratight monetary policy they've pursued since the early 90's (as well as structural issues of course); NGDP actually shrunk there over 2 decades [4]. But they've been moving in a different direction lately, and the shift seems to be paying dividends.

[1] Drag the slider here back to mid-2011 to get a long-ish view: https://www.google.com/finance?chdnp=1&chfdeh=0&chdet=141499...

[2] http://static.cdn-seekingalpha.com/uploads/2014/9/11/sauploa...

[3] http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/31/nikkei-japan-stimul...

[4] http://uneasymoney.com/2012/02/13/japans-2-decade-experiment...

Re: Capitalism Has Gone Off the Rails

#22
post #17

This is an important article, but I doubt there will be a useful discussion of it here. The developed world has incredible productive capacity. With 1% of the workforce in agriculture and 8% in manufacturing, the US produces as much stuff as China. There are no significant shortages of any manufactured good anywhere in the developed world. Quality is pretty good across the board, too. This is unique in history. That'…

Great comment. The standard argument given by capitalists is that the "pie" will keep on growing, so while the existing owners of capital will get richer, it will also lift others out of poverty. Why is this not happening any more? Is it because earlier automation used to create "new" jobs which require labour, while now automation is removing the need for labour at all?

Re: Capitalism Has Gone Off the Rails

#23

Well, yes. As more of the money is used to make more money, instead of things, experiences, or people... It losses it's correlation with the things that we actually want out of an economy. Plus, those in power (rightfully) use the power to get more power of the sort they already have. According the history books I read as a kid, this is what caused capitalism in the first place (english barons with more money than po…

> Iceland Not clear to me the executivies were charged for anything applicable to the overall collapse http://www.economist.com/news/finance-and-economics/21577064... 3 from Iceland, 2 for stock manipulation and 1 for fraud. Not viable institutions - that would be retirement and mutual funds with hundreds of billions invested in real estate tranches? > older organism to gift Not sure where all those energetic milleni…

> ...charged for anything applicable

I don't know if it's similar enough, but, a good extreme example is Al Capone. He wasn't charged with organized crime, but I don't think you could argue he wasn't jailed for it. Conversely (although that may be the wrong operation) and by design, you can do a Wrong Thing and not be jailed because it's a new Wrong Thing and thus there's no law against it - there's actually a technical term for this, and AFAIK it's one of the basic principles of our judicial system.

> Not viable...

I think you're reading in that I think we shouldn't have bailed out those institutions, since you're using examples with emotional impact.

And actually, there may be an interesting correlation here... What do you think of the "Right to Die"? To continue with the medical analogies, if you have someone in a vegetative state (for the purposes of the analogy, they are no longer a viable person), you don't pull them off life support immediately, because it IS about more than just them. But you do let them die, eventually.

So let's say you have this retirement and mutual fund that has - by virtue of a CONTINUED need for financial life support - demonstrated that it has entered a zombie state. Well, if you consider the invested funds as the organism's energy... redistribute that energy to new organisms (aka, break up the company). Energy still exists, energy is still invested - and yes, of course I'm simplifying this and it could be non-feasible due to the effort involved in that break-up, but the idea remains.

> Where all those...

...Protesting? :D Joking aside, well - again, that energy isn't lost. Where does it go? I'm very much not enough of an economist to say what circumstances money is actually destroyed, but... as Lewis CK put it: nothing's on fire and nobody's dead.

Now, want to say that energy doesn't go someplace appropriate? We could go the angry route and say it's going to the wall street bankers that caused the collapse, which in turn then looks like a whale eating krill. At some point the whale needs to die so there can be nourished krill, and the Cycle Continues, as they say.

I'm OK with more than old corporations dying but I don't think either of these positions have anything to nihilism. Then again, SMBC is my understanding of nihilism. (http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2394)

Re: Capitalism Has Gone Off the Rails

#24
Let's see how many downvotes I get. The capitalism is no longer what it used to be due to the separation of ownership from control. IBM and Ford started as family businesses, passed from father to son. Who owned IBM 100 years ago? Watson did, then his son was a CEO. Who owns it now? Nobody, "shareholders", with an affirmative action hire guiding this mess as a CEO. Toyota was a family business too, largely owned by Toyoda family.

Why did the separation of ownership from control happen? Primarily due to the widespread use of birth control among whites. Franchised women consistently vote for the big government, for regulation and for the safety net. Big government actually disfavors small and hereditary businesses, since they are harder to control than a few concentrated anonymous conglomerates without real owners. Plus there are fewer capable sons in a nuclear family to pass a business on than a 100 years ago (also think about single moms here).

Reduced white fertility also led to replacement of the bulk of white work force with a lower IQ non-asian minorities (NAM) workforce. In the age of hi tech and automation, such work force is largely useless. They are kept occupied however, to reduce crime rates (think of Detroit riots of the 60s).

Additionally, the overall effect of women in the workforce is also counterproductive- more workplace drama than actual creative work.

Now let the downvotes roll in!

Re: Capitalism Has Gone Off the Rails

#25
post #17

This is an important article, but I doubt there will be a useful discussion of it here. The developed world has incredible productive capacity. With 1% of the workforce in agriculture and 8% in manufacturing, the US produces as much stuff as China. There are no significant shortages of any manufactured good anywhere in the developed world. Quality is pretty good across the board, too. This is unique in history. That'…

We do have a model that has successfully demonstrating certain principles which may be capable of addressing this problem: Burning Man. Bear with me for a second.

I'd say (and then pointing out my lack of formal or amateurish study of economics) that the issue you're pointing at is that capitalism doesn't function well in a post-scarcity environment, which we're entering. This is because our means of determining value is primarily based on supply/demand dynamics - aka, scarcity. As scarcity goes away, our ability to determine value goes away, and with it, our ability to distribute energy throughout our civilization.

Burning Man (which is definitely NOT a viable economic model and I am NOT aruging that) demonstrates the viability of a new principle: YOUR value is based on what you give away.

Which gets really interesting when you look at economics as a sort of directed thermodynamic problem: What defines where energy (aka money) goes? Right now, it's defined by supply/demand dynamics and wants and needs - what if it were primarily defined by altruism?

You can come at this from a different angle, going back to that grade school career question: If you had a million dollars, what would you do? Or to rephrase, if all your needs were taken care of, what would you do?

Blah, blah, blah, I'm throwing out a bunch of ideas to see how they react. What're your thoughts, given what I've described?

Re: Capitalism Has Gone Off the Rails

#26

Let's see how many downvotes I get. The capitalism is no longer what it used to be due to the separation of ownership from control. IBM and Ford started as family businesses, passed from father to son. Who owned IBM 100 years ago? Watson did, then his son was a CEO. Who owns it now? Nobody, "shareholders", with an affirmative action hire guiding this mess as a CEO. Toyota was a family business too, largely owned by T…

I'm with you for the first paragraph but then what the fuck, man? Why present a worthwhile argumentative point and then supply cans of ammo for attacking it via your character?

Re: Capitalism Has Gone Off the Rails

#27
post #17

This is an important article, but I doubt there will be a useful discussion of it here. The developed world has incredible productive capacity. With 1% of the workforce in agriculture and 8% in manufacturing, the US produces as much stuff as China. There are no significant shortages of any manufactured good anywhere in the developed world. Quality is pretty good across the board, too. This is unique in history. That'…

This is not an important article, it is a rant against people with "tacky mansions", a turn of phrase that is more indicative of the author's point of view than the other conventional points about not understanding creative destruction. I think it is this overly nationalist view of economics that needs to die, not "capitalism".

There is not less productive work to go around, it's just not being done in the US. We are in a difficult situation because we have free trade with lower cost labor markets. Until labor market costs in free trade enclaves reach equilibrium, capitalism will continue to raise more people out of poverty, and prevent wages from rising in places where they are above the demand level in the global market.

The extraordinary amount of government debt being created is an interesting phenomenon, as it is failing to cause inflation in most large currencies as they are increasing the money quantities in a correlated fashion. The financial entities are spending a lot of energy pricing these various instruments, and can make low risk money on the spreads.

Japan did have a real estate bubble. The thing about bubbles is not "coming back", it's that the wealth wasn't real in the first place. We weren't as rich as we thought we were. Their problem is demographics, an aging population, low birth rate, and a society that is not practiced at encouraging positive immigration.

"What capitalism gives us by default is a small number of rich people and a large number of poor people competing for a shrinking pool of low-paying jobs." This is just wrong in every way...the number of rich people in the world is growing, the number of jobs in the world is growing. Just because every country is not moving linearly up and to the right does not mean things are falling apart.

Re: Capitalism Has Gone Off the Rails

#28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So who doesn't?

I'm not aware of any major countries unfortunately.

So, you don't actually have any data to back up your claim that your proposed fix would fix anything. Here, let me edit your first statement to include your data:

> All of the countries [have] growing inequality [and] heavy-handed socialist policies in place.

Re: Capitalism Has Gone Off the Rails

#29
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the richest and most technologically advanced societies in the world, consisting of the most educated and most productive free people in the world, people who through democratic institutions can shape their societies as they see fit, are converging to the same basic model, and you want me to believe that this isn't a ringing endorsement of that model?

> ...the most educated and most productive free people in the world, people who through democratic institutions can shape their societies as they see fit... I don't accept this premise. Voting is only a small input into the colossal self-propelling machinery of bureaucracy (and the government-to-corporations-and-back chain of what could be called pay-offs or bribes... ie campaign donations, to profit-increasing chang…

I'm with you on paper voting being a small input, but (arguably) a more important part of the "freedom" part of our "free societies" is the ability to vote with my time, dollar, and feet - decide where I spend my time, my money, and where I live.

So howsabout this rephrasing:

> people who through [their free actions] can shape their societies as they see fit...

Re: Capitalism Has Gone Off the Rails

#30
post #21

There's a lot of conflation in this article between distribution and economic growth, which I think arises from the Spiegel's European perspective. Going back to the start of the DAX tracking (mid-2011), we see okay performance in German DAX index, stagnation for the French CAC and British FTSE, and strong performance in the US S&P 500 and Japanese Nikkei. [1] Eurozone unemployment has soared into double digits of la…

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