Police allow car break-ins to become a Seattle growth industry • Hacker News Board

Re: Police allow car break-ins to become a Seattle growth industry

#111

Post by wozniacki » Mon, Nov 03, 2014, 1:32 AM UTC

BadassFractal wrote: post #38

panarky wrote: post #24

Take care of the small stuff and the big stuff will take care of itself. The broken windows theory is a criminological theory of the norm-setting and signaling effect of urban disorder and vandalism on additional crime and anti-social behavior. The theory states that maintaining and monitoring urban environments in a well-ordered condition may stop further vandalism and escalation into more serious crime[1]. From the…

Just yesterday in the civic center area here in SF I'm getting a sandwich and this mentally ill (or really high, or both) bum lady walks into the shop and proceeds to howl at the top of her lungs for 10 minutes, dance around the shop, kick down a bunch of seats. Right next to her is a hole in the wall punched by some other mentally infirm person that same day. Nothing. The staff is used to it, I'm used to it, the oth…

Whatever you do in manner of becoming vocal about such dysfunctions, attending SFPD meetings, building support for ballot measures by getting the community involved and other efforts to address dysfunction, graft and full blown corruption in the city's affairs ... whatever else you do

  Please Do Not Leave The City

Set down roots here if you want to change the way this city functions and lives.

If you can, own a home ( I know that is asking a lot in the current climate ). Home ownership is key to instilling a sense of belonging to the city. This is one of the areas in which, the gay population of Castro has succeeded mightily. Good for them.

If you just pick up your things and leave - like previous middle class residents of SF have done, to Oakland or even beyond - this city will never change.

This city needs sensible people.

[1] SFPD Police Commission Agenda Calendar

http://www.sf-police.org/meeting.aspx?page=4434

Re: Police allow car break-ins to become a Seattle growth industry

#112

Post by pmorici » Mon, Nov 03, 2014, 1:33 AM UTC

raldi wrote: post #53

BadassFractal wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just yesterday in the civic center area here in SF I'm getting a sandwich and this mentally ill (or really high, or both) bum lady walks into the shop and proceeds to howl at the top of her lungs for 10 minutes, dance around the shop, kick down a bunch of seats. Right next to her is a hole in the wall punched by some other mentally infirm person that same day. Nothing. The staff is used to it, I'm used to it, the oth…

> What am I supposed to do as a resident? Vote to repeal Prop 13 when the opportunity arises, and tell others to do the same. At some point, polling will indicate that it has a chance of happening, and then someone will put it on the ballot.

How would raising property taxes stop homeless people from acting belligerently in public?

Re: Police allow car break-ins to become a Seattle growth industry

#113

Post by raldi » Mon, Nov 03, 2014, 1:45 AM UTC

pmorici wrote: post #112

raldi wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What am I supposed to do as a resident? Vote to repeal Prop 13 when the opportunity arises, and tell others to do the same. At some point, polling will indicate that it has a chance of happening, and then someone will put it on the ballot.

How would raising property taxes stop homeless people from acting belligerently in public?

It would pay for better homeless care and more, higher-quality police officers.

Re: Police allow car break-ins to become a Seattle growth industry

#114

Post by npizzolato » Mon, Nov 03, 2014, 1:52 AM UTC

GFK_of_xmaspast wrote: post #102

jedberg wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it is legal to use deadly force to retrieve stolen goods, yours or anyone else's. You'd have to staff your firm with off duty cops or something to skirt that law.

In some states, you can use deadly force to prevent someone from stealing your stuff.

But after they've stolen it you don't get to track them down and use deadly force to get your stuff back.

Re: Police allow car break-ins to become a Seattle growth industry

#115

Post by BadassFractal » Mon, Nov 03, 2014, 1:56 AM UTC

raldi wrote: post #113

pmorici wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would raising property taxes stop homeless people from acting belligerently in public?

It would pay for better homeless care and more, higher-quality police officers.

Admittedly I don't know much about this, but it remains to be seen whether this is an issue that stems from the city not having enough money. Fascinating how this is somewhat reminiscent of the whole education discussion we've had for years: schools need more money vs schools are terrible at allocating money correctly.

Re: Police allow car break-ins to become a Seattle growth industry

#116

Post by DanBC » Mon, Nov 03, 2014, 2:05 AM UTC

ketralnis wrote: post #95

DanBC wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People with a mental health problem are far more likely to be the victims, not perpetrators, of violence. Most violent crime is not committed by people with a mental illness. While I appreciate the concern you show for the piss-poor inhumane brutal lack of treatment your country provides to those with a mental illness (despite spending more per capita on health) it'd be nice if you could do it without stigmatising me…

I appreciate what you're trying to say, but he's not talking about a random sampling of mentally ill people. He's talking about a person that's kicking a bunch of seats around and generally indicating a potential for violence. Whether or not we're talking about mental illness, we're talking about someone that's current being violent.

There's a clear extrapolation from that one person being violent[1] to the idea that people with mental illness are in general violent.

> Right next to her is a hole in the wall punched by some other mentally infirm person that same day.

BadassFractal didn't witness that, but assumes it was done by someone with a mental health problem rather than someone who's just an angry arsehole.

> I would however love to feel safe when being outside of my apartment, instead of wondering if one of these dozens of visibly infirm people I pass by on the way to anything is about to assault me

This is directly linking mental ill health to violence, and it's just as abhorrent as linking violent crime to African Americans.

Those visibly infirm people are far more likely to be the victims, not perpetrators, of violence -- even if you remove self-inflicted violence.

[1] to property, not as far as I know to people.

EDIT: http://depts.washington.edu/mhreport/facts_violence.php

> - "Although studies suggest a link between mental illnesses and violence, the contribution of people with mental illnesses to overall rates of violence is small, and further, the magnitude of the relationship is greatly exaggerated in the minds of the general population (Institute of Medicine, 2006)."

> - "…the vast majority of people who are violent do not suffer from mental illnesses (American Psychiatric Association, 1994)."

> - "The absolute risk of violence among the mentally ill as a group is very small. . . only a small proportion of the violence in our society can be attributed to persons who are mentally ill (Mulvey, 1994)."

> -"People with psychiatric disabilities are far more likely to be victims than perpetrators of violent crime (Appleby, et al., 2001). People with severe mental illnesses, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder or psychosis, are 2 ½ times more likely to be attacked, raped or mugged than the general population (Hiday, et al.,1999)."

> The effects of stigma and discrimination are profound. The President’s New Freedom Commission on Mental Health found that, “Stigma leads others to avoid living, socializing, or working with, renting to, or employing people with mental disorders - especially severe disorders, such as schizophrenia. It leads to low self-esteem, isolation, and hopelessness. It deters the public from seeking and wanting to pay for care. Responding to stigma, people with mental health problems internalize public attitudes and become so embarrassed or ashamed that they often conceal symptoms and fail to seek treatment (New Freedom Commission, 2003).”

Re: Police allow car break-ins to become a Seattle growth industry

#117

Post by cpwright » Mon, Nov 03, 2014, 2:09 AM UTC

donavanm wrote: post #80

coderjames wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So police kept showing up. Did any of that policing actually solve anything? Sounds like a ridiculously high amount of crime for one person in two years.

No. And even if it had led to conviction every time I personally dont believe it would have solved anything either. However the main story is explicitly about our police departments lack of "appropriate" reaction. And so my own anecdote is explicitly about response and reaction, not results. With regards to the high crime rate maybe Im just lucky. Some of those incidents had overlap, like both my car and the neighbor…

This is sure to be an unpopular opinion, but convictions and meaningful sentences would likely have a positive affect. If there are only trivial consequences to crime, then rational actors will be more willing to commit them. If there are bigger consequences, they will be less likely to commit them. Moreover, if the criminal is in jail; there is a period of time they are taken out of circulation.

Re: Police allow car break-ins to become a Seattle growth industry

#118

Post by sthomas1618 » Mon, Nov 03, 2014, 2:10 AM UTC

richard_cubano wrote: post #93

raldi wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

New York can also manage to win a World Series without allowing the city to be taken over for the night by violent, destructive mobs. That's because they have a much better funded, and well-run, police force.

It's not funding. It's the relative power of unions. In California, a cop costs $200k a year, when pensions and health care are factored in.

I'm not sure about that. I don't know about SF, but in many other CA cities, they have plenty of positions open, but are having trouble finding qualified candidates. Being in law enforcement is not very appealing.

Re: Police allow car break-ins to become a Seattle growth industry

#119

Post by discardorama » Mon, Nov 03, 2014, 2:26 AM UTC

raldi wrote: post #113

pmorici wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would raising property taxes stop homeless people from acting belligerently in public?

It would pay for better homeless care and more, higher-quality police officers.

Ah, another of those "let's throw more money at the problem, and maybe that'll fix it" people.

Firstly: the City has no shortage of money. The City's budget this year is a whopping $8.6 Billion dollars. For a city of 850,000 people, that's quite a lot.

Secondly: the City already spends a lot on homelessness; the direct spending per homeless person exceeds $12,000/year. There are task forces galore on this problem, and nothing makes a dent.

Thirdly: SFPD is already among the highest paid in the country. Rookie officers can make more than $100K/year with overtime. There is no accountability; and they'd rather shoot than treat a mentally ill person properly: http://www.vice.com/read/most-of-the-people-killed-by-the-sa...

And finally: this "throw more money without accountability" approach is a part of the problem. It provides an economic incentive to do a shitty job, because hey, doing a bad job gets more money!!

Re: Police allow car break-ins to become a Seattle growth industry

#120

Post by icelancer » Mon, Nov 03, 2014, 2:30 AM UTC

bhc wrote: post #42

chrismealy wrote: post #29

Seattle has half the cops that some big cities have (20 per 10,000 residents). New York and Chicago have around 40, Boston 33. http://www.governing.com/gov-data/safety-justice/police-offi...

The level of public safety in a particular city frequently comes down to how much property tax its population is wiling to pay.

Property tax in King County is no joke; both percentage-wise and absolute costs. Real estate prices are very high here and taxes are not friendly, either (lack of state income tax is shifted elsewhere).

Spending two gazillion dollars on a stupid tunnel that is already going to cost 2x estimates is just another fine feature of this idiotic bureaucracy in my area.