The Future of Payments and Open Source Support
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The Future of Payments and Open Source Support
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Re: The Future of Payments and Open Source Support
#2TLDR; there are two problems with tip4commit:
1. The obvious, that they are collecting funds on behalf of other people's work and then keeping them when the funds go 'unclaimed'
2. Even if you do want to claim it, they don't make it easy, and for someone in a complicated tax country (like the author, Austria) there is almost no way he could accept the money without incurring some kind of risk. So basically when they are keeping money that goes unclaimed it's very problematic because they don't make the money easy to claim in the first place. Obvious incentives issues.
Point 2 is what this article is about.
Re: The Future of Payments and Open Source Support
#3TLDR; there are two problems with tip4commit: 1. The obvious, that they are collecting funds on behalf of other people's work and then keeping them when the funds go 'unclaimed' 2. Even if you do want to claim it, they don't make it easy, and for someone in a complicated tax country (like the author, Austria) there is almost no way he could accept the money without incurring some kind of risk. So basically when they…
I'm not sure it is. I'm not a huge fan of tip4commit either, I agree that it's opt-out model is bogus, but the fact that it uses Bitcoin seems irrelevant.
The author seems to believe he cannot accept tips, because of tax and regulation, but he doesn't point out what specifically would cause problems here. Obviously people make and accept tips using euros all the time, this is not illegal, so why it would be different using Bitcoin isn't obvious. You can declare tips as income, no problem.
The real cause of his discomfort is revealed later in the post:
Personally I believe that Bitcoin is a terrible currency ... If you have a completely broken piece of country then I can imagine that you are suspicious of regulation and this sort of thing, but for me regulation is what keeps my world running and working.
Also,
Bitcoin for me feels like a cult. The vocal people in the community seem like they don't actually care about Bitcoin, but they want to see it succeed so that their "investment" makes a profit
So he has a generalised feeling that Bitcoin is bad because it's popular and has vocal fans, and that regulation is good yet also complicated, so anything which seems simple must be unregulated and therefore bad.
I do not consider myself particularly libertarian, though I do use and work on Bitcoin. Regardless, this doesn't seem like a great set of arguments. Rather, the author has decided that because a lot of Bitcoin users don't seem to like government, and he likes government, he should not like Bitcoin.
Re: The Future of Payments and Open Source Support
#4TLDR; there are two problems with tip4commit: 1. The obvious, that they are collecting funds on behalf of other people's work and then keeping them when the funds go 'unclaimed' 2. Even if you do want to claim it, they don't make it easy, and for someone in a complicated tax country (like the author, Austria) there is almost no way he could accept the money without incurring some kind of risk. So basically when they…
I'm not sure it is. I'm not a huge fan of tip4commit either, I agree that it's opt-out model is bogus, but the fact that it uses Bitcoin seems irrelevant. The author seems to believe he cannot accept tips, because of tax and regulation, but he doesn't point out what specifically would cause problems here. Obviously people make and accept tips using euros all the time, this is not illegal, so why it would be different…
> The author seems to believe he cannot accept tips, because of tax and regulation
That's not what he said. He said that he doesn't want to deal with a system for accepting tips if the cost to him of the system (not just in money but in time and effort) is greater than the benefit. He mentioned two tipping systems (gratipay and bountysource) that, to him, don't have this problem.
Re: The Future of Payments and Open Source Support
#5TLDR; there are two problems with tip4commit: 1. The obvious, that they are collecting funds on behalf of other people's work and then keeping them when the funds go 'unclaimed' 2. Even if you do want to claim it, they don't make it easy, and for someone in a complicated tax country (like the author, Austria) there is almost no way he could accept the money without incurring some kind of risk. So basically when they…
I'm not sure it is. I'm not a huge fan of tip4commit either, I agree that it's opt-out model is bogus, but the fact that it uses Bitcoin seems irrelevant. The author seems to believe he cannot accept tips, because of tax and regulation, but he doesn't point out what specifically would cause problems here. Obviously people make and accept tips using euros all the time, this is not illegal, so why it would be different…
> author seems to believe he cannot accept tips, because of tax and regulation, but he doesn't point out what specifically would cause problems here.
JFTR: "accepting tips" for software is something that is not at all straightforward. The way bountysource and others get around that is through invoices once a large enough amount has accumulated. I have no idea how that works in other countries. Gratipay/bountysource solve this problem, no bitcoin service I have seen does.
> Rather, the author has decided that because a lot of Bitcoin users don't seem to like government, and he likes government, he should not like Bitcoin.
I think you misunderstand something there: I am pointing out why Bitcoin is something that does not solve problems for me and I doubt I am the only one. The premise of tip4commit is that it helps Open Source projects. It's not just not helping me, it's making my life more complicated. In fact, right now, pretty much anything that has bitcoin involved makes it harder for me.
Re: The Future of Payments and Open Source Support
#6Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm not sure it is. I'm not a huge fan of tip4commit either, I agree that it's opt-out model is bogus, but the fact that it uses Bitcoin seems irrelevant. The author seems to believe he cannot accept tips, because of tax and regulation, but he doesn't point out what specifically would cause problems here. Obviously people make and accept tips using euros all the time, this is not illegal, so why it would be different…
> author seems to believe he cannot accept tips, because of tax and regulation, but he doesn't point out what specifically would cause problems here. JFTR: "accepting tips" for software is something that is not at all straightforward. The way bountysource and others get around that is through invoices once a large enough amount has accumulated. I have no idea how that works in other countries. Gratipay/bountysource s…
Could you explain why accepting tips is so complicated? What specific law means you cannot do it?
Let me put this another way. If your friends give you money for your birthday, do you give it back to them and tell them you can't accept their gift because of tax and regulation? I doubt it! You may well declare the gifts on your tax return if it's big enough to bother with, but if Austria makes it hard to accept cash gifts of small amounts then something is seriously wrong with Austrian law and this is not something to be defended.
Re: The Future of Payments and Open Source Support
#7TLDR; there are two problems with tip4commit: 1. The obvious, that they are collecting funds on behalf of other people's work and then keeping them when the funds go 'unclaimed' 2. Even if you do want to claim it, they don't make it easy, and for someone in a complicated tax country (like the author, Austria) there is almost no way he could accept the money without incurring some kind of risk. So basically when they…
I'm not sure it is. I'm not a huge fan of tip4commit either, I agree that it's opt-out model is bogus, but the fact that it uses Bitcoin seems irrelevant. The author seems to believe he cannot accept tips, because of tax and regulation, but he doesn't point out what specifically would cause problems here. Obviously people make and accept tips using euros all the time, this is not illegal, so why it would be different…
This may have changed in the last 24 hours, but last I checked tip4commit's opt-out model is "get stuffed". The original controversy was over their refusal to remove projects from the site on request.
I agree that Bitcoin is more or less irrelevant to the controversy, but like the OP says, the tip4commit defenders seem to have intentionally made it a pro/anti-Bitcoin conflict. Bitcoin advocates were mobilized to support the site.
Re: The Future of Payments and Open Source Support
#8TLDR; there are two problems with tip4commit: 1. The obvious, that they are collecting funds on behalf of other people's work and then keeping them when the funds go 'unclaimed' 2. Even if you do want to claim it, they don't make it easy, and for someone in a complicated tax country (like the author, Austria) there is almost no way he could accept the money without incurring some kind of risk. So basically when they…
I'm not sure it is. I'm not a huge fan of tip4commit either, I agree that it's opt-out model is bogus, but the fact that it uses Bitcoin seems irrelevant. The author seems to believe he cannot accept tips, because of tax and regulation, but he doesn't point out what specifically would cause problems here. Obviously people make and accept tips using euros all the time, this is not illegal, so why it would be different…
> The author seems to believe he cannot accept tips, because of tax and regulation, but he doesn't point out what specifically would cause problems here.
I'm in the US, not Austria, but from what little I've seen of even the US's legal and tax system, doing something with money that you don't fully understand is a risk. I am glad that there are people who are willing to take that risk in the name of improving society, and pioneer the use of Bitcoin and other alternative currencies.
But nobody should be obligated to take that risk if they don't want to. I would be completely unsurprised if some emergent behavior between the US tax code and other laws meant that if you were merely aware of people accepting tips on your behalf using your name, even if you didn't ask them to, there are tax or legal obligations. I would be completely unsurprised if the law says, if you ask them to stop and they don't, you're _obligated_ to initiate legal process to make them stop. I don't think the law says that, but it's certainly way less crazy than lots of funny corners of US tax and commerce law.
I would also be completely unsurprised if US tax code got complicated when you're accepting Bitcoin as payment. I'm dimly aware that the IRS or FinCEN or someone issued guidance recently that Bitcoin doesn't count as a currency but instead counts as a something-else... and not being a cryptocurrency user, I haven't bothered to learn what that something-else is and how you're supposed to report taxes on it.
If someone is willing to figure out how the law works, or pay their lawyer to, more power to them. But nobody should be _obligated_ to.
Re: The Future of Payments and Open Source Support
#9Earlier quoted context omitted.
> author seems to believe he cannot accept tips, because of tax and regulation, but he doesn't point out what specifically would cause problems here. JFTR: "accepting tips" for software is something that is not at all straightforward. The way bountysource and others get around that is through invoices once a large enough amount has accumulated. I have no idea how that works in other countries. Gratipay/bountysource s…
Could you explain why accepting tips is so complicated? What specific law means you cannot do it? Let me put this another way. If your friends give you money for your birthday, do you give it back to them and tell them you can't accept their gift because of tax and regulation? I doubt it! You may well declare the gifts on your tax return if it's big enough to bother with, but if Austria makes it hard to accept cash g…
Even supposing something was seriously wrong with Austrian law, it's a little presumptuous to expect everyone affected to try to fight that. Maybe they're already under careful watch by the national tax agency after getting audited because of some honest mistake the past year. Maybe they're under probation under a law you and I would call unjust, but triggering further law-enforcement attention lands them in jail regardless of whether they were justified. (This scenario happens a lot in America, incidentally.)
If someone says "I want to stay out of this", that should be their right.
Re: The Future of Payments and Open Source Support
#10Earlier quoted context omitted.
> author seems to believe he cannot accept tips, because of tax and regulation, but he doesn't point out what specifically would cause problems here. JFTR: "accepting tips" for software is something that is not at all straightforward. The way bountysource and others get around that is through invoices once a large enough amount has accumulated. I have no idea how that works in other countries. Gratipay/bountysource s…
Could you explain why accepting tips is so complicated? What specific law means you cannot do it? Let me put this another way. If your friends give you money for your birthday, do you give it back to them and tell them you can't accept their gift because of tax and regulation? I doubt it! You may well declare the gifts on your tax return if it's big enough to bother with, but if Austria makes it hard to accept cash g…
Why would anybody bother figuring out the specifics to collect $50?
You are saying "take it and don't worry about it", but it's also not enough to take on any risk of hassle, let alone fines or whatever.