Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Job brokers steal wages and entrap Indian tech workers in US

theguardian.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 190 posts

Re: Job brokers steal wages and entrap Indian tech workers in US

#71

Post by Sven7 »

fadzlan wrote: post #37

Worked with one big Indian company here in Malaysia last time and I see intimidation as common means of dealing with employees. Unfortunately, it doesn't really work well here, since most of people have a lot of choices moving around. I've been pushed to accept work that has a minimum wage in a different country, despite my experience and the fact I can't possibly survive with my family there. I've had my resume jack…

How do they get them to pay a years worth of salary if they quit? I doubt this ever happens. Though I don't doubt fresh grads believing them and sticking it out.

Re: Job brokers steal wages and entrap Indian tech workers in US

#72

Post by usernamepc »

drewrv wrote: post #51
usernamepc wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are two reasons (both sort of hard to fix) for why contracting is screwed up. 1. Co-employment- Large companies like Google or Apple would love to hire contractors directly but are very scared of being sued by contractors that can claim they were actually employees-not contractors because of the unclear rules around who is/is not an employee. So they introduce a staffing agency in between to become the 'employe…

> Large companies don't like to advertise that they hire contractors. Do you know the reason for this?

They don't want job-seekers cherry picking or getting confused between full-time jobs and contract jobs (You can sometimes get a higher pay-rate contracting than as a full-time at the same company). I think, they also fear it reduces their recruiting brand. They want to make it appear that getting a job at X is really hard, which is why they boast about their low acceptance rate, etc. If people discovered there are hundred or thousands of contract jobs at the company, it reduces the allure. Use of contractors is also often not deemed as a 'good' workforce practice - similar to outsourcing, mainly because of stories of exploitation, etc. It also leads to complications- think customers buying some sophisticated or sensitive equipment or service from you discovering that you had a bunch of contractors building it.

Re: Job brokers steal wages and entrap Indian tech workers in US

#73

Post by lotsofmangos »

ssiddharth wrote: post #10

This is disgusting on so many levels. Hopefully us Indians can now stop being so starry eyed over working abroad and see it for what it is.

If someone is paying you an airfare you cannot currently afford, rather than already paying you enough before you leave a country that any paid flights are merely a courtesy, then be very suspicious.

Re: Job brokers steal wages and entrap Indian tech workers in US

#74

Post by winter_blue »

induscreep wrote: post #45
winter_blue wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no lease. An H1B worker can switch companies freely with little hassle. It's the L-1 visa that has a lease. Congress passed a law in 2000 called 'AC21' which brought job portability for H1B workers. I don't know why I keep hearing people on HN and elsewhere talk as though AC21 never happened over and over again. Please have the sense to do some basic research before forming your opinions. Lastly the cost to t…

H1B portability is a misnomer. All that happens is that the new employer applies for a new H1B for you, which is not subject to the cap. So you are just tied to the new employer. Portability here just means that you can choose which employer to be tied to. http://www.immihelp.com/visas/h1b/h1-transfer.html

You do realize that "tied to" implies that you can't change jobs? But that's not the case with H-1B workers. You can switch jobs at will, and even work multiple jobs (with concurrent petitions) at the same time.

Furthermore, AC21 enables you to begin working as soon as your next/future employer has filed a petition – so you don't have to wait until USCIS makes a decision. With a good employer and attorney, USCIS will generally approve the case (although I'm sure there are outliers).

In practical terms, the effect of AC21 is that (for the most part) it allows you to take up any job in that is directly related to what you major. The employer has to spend a bit on the petition and on an immigration lawyer, but in our industry it's a drop in the bucket compared to what they'll be paying you annually.

Re: Job brokers steal wages and entrap Indian tech workers in US

#75

Post by eli_gottlieb »

houseofshards wrote: post #18

The worst part here is that H1B visas allocated to these scumbag companies end up starving genuine companies of these visas.

The H1-B system is designed for this. If it wasn't, visas would be auctioned off by the government, with the highest proposed salaries winning the first visas. Visas would thus go to the most productive and talented foreign workers employed by the most productive and talented companies.

Much of our current economy is designed to maximize the exploitation and domination of labor, even when that runs against maximizing productivity and economic output.

Re: Job brokers steal wages and entrap Indian tech workers in US

#76

Post by winter_blue »

induscreep wrote: post #47
desdiv wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From Wikipedia article on H-1B visa: >The American Competitiveness in the Twenty-First Century Act of 2000 (AC21) and the U.S. Department of Labor's PERM system for labor certification erased most of the earlier claimed arguments for H-1Bs as indentured servants during the green card process. With PERM, labor certification processing time is now approximately 9 months (as of Mar 2010).[33] >Because of AC21, the H-1B…

> if they have an I-485 application pending for six months and an approved I-140 That is related to a green card. And yes, employers typically try to file your I-140 under EB-3. This means that you need to wait 10+ years before your priority date becomes current. Once the PD is current, you can file your I-485. After another 6 months elapse, ONLY THEN can you invoke AC21. In effect, the employee is tied to the employ…

My understanding was that while you wait your priority date to become current, you are not locked to your current employer. I think this was one of things that AC21 fixed. There is a 180-day period following your I-140 approval during which you are locked to the employer that filed your I-140, but after that you are free to switch to another employer, as long as your new position will be substantially similar to the one for which the I-140 was filed. Changing employers after 180 days have elapsed should not affect the underlying approved I-140.

I've tried sift through the legalese of AC21 and discern as much as I can, and this is my understanding. I might be wrong. Here's the full text of the Act: https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/106/s2045/text It's fairly short. I just wish they hyperlinked the references to other laws and acts.

Re: Job brokers steal wages and entrap Indian tech workers in US

#77

Post by winter_blue »

induscreep wrote: post #39
winter_blue wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If H1Bs were not tied to employers I'm sick and tired of hearing this bullshit repeated over and over again. Let me say this once: H1B workers are not tied down to a particular employer. It used to be the case that the were , but in 2000, Congress passed a law (known as "AC21") which brought job portability for H1B workers. I don't know why I keep hearing people on HN and elsewhere talk as though AC21 never happene…

EDIT: AC21 is for those who are applying for a green card (I-485 pending). How the heck is AC21 even connected to H1B? Source/link please? EDIT2: H1B transfer does not seem to involve AC21. All that happens is that the new employer will need to apply for a H1B petition all over again. So you are simply tied to the new employer, instead of your old employer. http://www.immihelp.com/visas/h1b/h1-transfer.html AC21 is n…

> AC21 is not free, there are legal fees and processing times involved. There is a non-zero cost involved. If this cost did not exist, if an employee could just switch jobs WITHOUT needing the receiving company to do anything, then obviously there would be no wage suppression. Employee can ask for a raise, and simply leave if refused.

In the tech industry, most companies are willing to do an H1B transfer. The cost of doing it is small compared to what they'll be paying you. You can start working right away, as AC21 states that you don't have to wait for USCIS to process and approve the petition before starting work. (A caveat to this is that if USCIS denies your company's petition for you, then you'll effectively be deported. This is unlikely though, if you work for a reputable company.)

Re: Job brokers steal wages and entrap Indian tech workers in US

#79

Post by usernamepc »

WildUtah wrote: post #64
eli_gottlieb wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>How to Fix- Labor laws would need to change, making it clear to companies how they can hire contractors without becoming liable to be held as employers. Except that the entire reason these laws exist is because tech companies have been caught using people as contractors permanently , "laying them off" on a consistent seasonable basis, and then "rehiring" them again as "contractors". A permanently-employed worker nee…

What's wrong with that? Lots of people love working seasonally. Teachers, fishermen, hospitality workers, and forest rangers can work seasonally. Why should programmers be denied the privilege by law?

I'm not aware of how it works in those fields, but as I see it, trying to burden companies with unclear laws and force artificial behavior is what is causing the problem in this case.

For example- A large company needs a contractor and is willing to pay $75/hr for 12 months.

Option 1- Hires you as a contractor directly for $75/hr on 1099. You get paid well, but if they are not very savvy about independent contractor compliance, you can still go after them in the future stating you should have been an employee for various reasons. The IRS could also go after them for not classifying you correctly and claim taxes missed. Good for you- Risky for Client.

Option 2- Give the req to their staffing agencies and offer to pay them the $75/hr. A Staffing agency finds and hires you as a permanent employee- pays you $40/hr with benefits. Terminates you after 12 months. Large Company ended up paying the same but has much lower risk of being considered employer because the staffing agency was paying you and taking care of your healthcare, etc. Same deal for Client but low risk- Bad deal for you - Good deal for Staffing Agency.

In the quest to try and force the law upon a company, we successfully complicated and introduced a middle-man into this process.

Re: Job brokers steal wages and entrap Indian tech workers in US

#80

Post by us0r »

selmnoo wrote: post #14
quanticle wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the record, Facebook, at least, says that it does not use labor brokers: Some companies say they shun labor brokers; a Facebook official told CIR that her company does not use them. Others who rely on them renounce the abuses but are quick to deflect responsibility.

Facebook, Microsoft and others do end up using consulting firms like Cognizant, which generally provide them H1-B immigrant workers. The conditions of their employment, at least in my eyes, are similarly predatorial in nature.

So does the government. I'd say the bulk of IT consulting funds goes to these firms.
Post reply on HN