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Audacious Plan to Make Electricity as Easy as WiFi

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21–30 of 70 posts

Re: Audacious Plan to Make Electricity as Easy as WiFi

#21

That's got to be a pretty loud noise to be able to transfer enough power to a device at a distance to be significant. Can long term exposure to loud ultrasonic noises damage your hearing even if you can't "hear" them somewhat like the way IR light can damage your eyes even though you can't see it? Think I might let a different set of early adopters try this one out before I put one in my bedroom to charge my iPad. It…

Yes, it has been recognized that ultrasonic sound can cause hearing damage.

http://www.tinnitusjournal.com/detalhe_artigo.asp?id=109

OSHA even sets standards for exposure & in fact my ultrasonic cleaner manual recommends wearing ear protection when in use.

https://www.osha.gov/dts/osta/otm/noise/health_effects/ultra...

Re: Audacious Plan to Make Electricity as Easy as WiFi

#22

The back story of this company is intriguing. The founders presented a prototype way back in 2011 at the D9 conference[1], and apparently weren't able to get any traction until they found a believer in Scott Nolan at Founders Fund[2]. Interestingly, Nolan seemed most impressed by the company's distribution plans: > Mr. Nolan said Ms. Perry had shown that chain stores and some “quick-service restaurants” were eager to…

I don't know who keeps that [3] blog or his credentials, but as an admitted appeal to authority, the CTO of uBeam (dual BS & MS from MIT) also ran some numbers before joining the company. As did Andreessen Horowitz's due diligence team before investing, which I'd imagine has a physicist or two in waiting. One obvious shortcoming in [3]'s analysis is assuming that you'd still need 5W of charging power if you could wir…

    the CTO of uBeam (dual BS & MS from MIT) also ran 
    some numbers before joining the company
I would hope that the CTO of uBeam essentially is the reason the company exists. i.e. he invented something fundamentally new and needed a partner that could sell it. If the business started with a charismatic business founder that recruited the CTO based on the business model being sound, I'd be very skeptical. A business like this doesn't exist yet not because the business model is hard, but because the physics is.

Re: Audacious Plan to Make Electricity as Easy as WiFi

#23
Here's a supposed demo of the device in action:

http://on.aol.com/video/ubeam-wireless-power-demonstration-a...

Only thing is that I want to see what's in the box on the left. There's nothing to show that the transmitters are actually transferring power and aren't simply telling the other side to turn on and change resistivity to a hidden battery on the left hand side (or even draw from the battery in the iPhone connected to the left hand side)

Furthermore, that's a pretty janky analog multimeter to be using for anyone doing electronics, and it's currently set to measure resistivity, not current or voltage.

Re: Audacious Plan to Make Electricity as Easy as WiFi

#24
post #17
post #11

There's noway that this is going to be practical within the current laws of physics. You can't use a wide beam to cover an area because the amount of energy available drops by orders of magnitude the further you get from the transmitter. If you used a focussed beam (which is what they are suggesting) then you need a separate beam that tracks and follows the location of each device. So to cover a very small area you'd…

Well, in principle you can divide one transmitter's attention to several devices over time. (Either by changing the direction of the antenna, or more sophisticatedly via beamforming.) Otherwise I agree with you. Even the tone of this article is unconvincing. I wonder what Andreessen’s due diligence team was thinking, maybe the patents have value?

Here are the published patents thus far:

http://patents.justia.com/inventor/marc-berte http://patents.justia.com/inventor/matthew-angle

The problem I can see is that the filing date for those patents is far later than public demonstrations such as the one at D9 on or around 04/22/2012

Re: Audacious Plan to Make Electricity as Easy as WiFi

#25

I am skeptical of the claimed safety of uBeam. The FDA does not advocate the safety of ultrasound. From the article: "Was it safe? Well … for starters it is just an inaudible soundwave being transferred – as in the kind also used for women during pregnancy." From the FDA: "Even though there are no known risks of ultrasound imaging, it can produce effects on the body. When ultrasound enters the body, it heats the tiss…

That quote from the FDA is referring to ultrasound imaging, which is performed with transducers in direct contact with the body. Even in those instances, ultrasound is regarded as one of the safest medical imaging techniques.

Nonetheless, while I suspect this technology is safe, I agree they shouldn't hand-wave over that aspect.

Re: Audacious Plan to Make Electricity as Easy as WiFi

#26

am sure she is great etc. this comment is a bit OT. i wish i could see more founders who are ugly and short (either male or female), in the good books of VCs and SV, gives more faith in the ecosystem.

I concur with you. VCs have a hard time measuring technical knowledge because they lack such knowledge themselves, and first appearances are more the result of the generic lottery than skills. That doesn't mean every rich person is beautiful, but it would be dishonest to pretend that it doesn't play a big role when social interactions are involved, such as raising capital.

Re: Audacious Plan to Make Electricity as Easy as WiFi

#27
post #17
post #11

There's noway that this is going to be practical within the current laws of physics. You can't use a wide beam to cover an area because the amount of energy available drops by orders of magnitude the further you get from the transmitter. If you used a focussed beam (which is what they are suggesting) then you need a separate beam that tracks and follows the location of each device. So to cover a very small area you'd…

Well, in principle you can divide one transmitter's attention to several devices over time. (Either by changing the direction of the antenna, or more sophisticatedly via beamforming.) Otherwise I agree with you. Even the tone of this article is unconvincing. I wonder what Andreessen’s due diligence team was thinking, maybe the patents have value?

If I were a VC invested in this, I'd want hearing tests on the engineers working on this project; once a month, over time.

Of course, if I were a VC, I wouldn't invest in this, because it is physically retarded on inspection. Whoever did the dil on this is either a fool who doesn't understand basic physics, or was bribed somehow. Off the top of my head a) sound energy falls off as 1/r^2, b) that those sorts of energy densities are almost certainly physically dangerous to more than ears c) sound doesn't propagate well in air at those frequencies; you're basically heating up air d) transducers are not good at turning sound into energy

Re: Audacious Plan to Make Electricity as Easy as WiFi

#28
post #6

> Was it safe? Well … for starters it is just an inaudible soundwave being transferred – as in the kind also used for women during pregnancy. It also happens to be how your car likely tells the distance to objects when you park or if you have a side assist whether you can change lanes safely. Check. Both of those Examples involve short exposure. That doesn't necessarily mean long exposure is OK. You would not, I hope…

It also would have to be at least an order of magnitude more energy to charge a phone than is allowed during obstetric ultrasonography.

Re: Audacious Plan to Make Electricity as Easy as WiFi

#29

I am skeptical of the claimed safety of uBeam. The FDA does not advocate the safety of ultrasound. From the article: "Was it safe? Well … for starters it is just an inaudible soundwave being transferred – as in the kind also used for women during pregnancy." From the FDA: "Even though there are no known risks of ultrasound imaging, it can produce effects on the body. When ultrasound enters the body, it heats the tiss…

5W of ultrasound focused on something the size of a phone (roughly .01 m^2) is at least 500 W/m^2. That's 147 dB, I think?

  (10 * log(500 (W/m^2) / 10^(-12) (W/m^2))/log(10))
A giant 0.1 m^2 tablet charging at 12W (120 W/m^2) needs only a 140 dB field. A watch, which might need 1W but with a cross section of more like .001 m^2 (for 1000 W/m^2), needs a 150 dB field.

If something intercepts the beam at 1m instead of the 3m the device is charging at, the cross section of the beam is about 1/3 by 1/3 the final cross section, which since it has to have the same energy (actually would need more to compensate for attenuation through air) would be nearly a 10dB increase?

Is 160dB of ultrasound (at 40kHz or 110 kHz) safe... for a few seconds? for a few minutes? a few seconds of exposure, daily? To your eardrum? To your eyes?

Higher energies needed if the phone isn't perfectly oriented. Worse case is small edge-on orientation to the transmitter.

Higher energies needed for less than 100% transducer efficiency, and I don't know what kind of engineering magic they've done for the transducer but what percentage of the energy could a thin skin over a device possibly convert? 80%? 50%?

The beam could be 170dB, or more.

I want to believe, but this is too sketchy without more information. Large companies have been conned out of millions by small teams peddling snake oil. I'd first want to see it demonstrated with nothing but the transmitter plugged into a socket (through a power meter), a phone at a known, low battery level, and nothing else with wires or metal in the room. Then I'd like to see a test of the transmitter aimed (from above) at a glass of water with a visible thermometer, to see what it does to water.

Re: Audacious Plan to Make Electricity as Easy as WiFi

#30
post #17
post #11

There's noway that this is going to be practical within the current laws of physics. You can't use a wide beam to cover an area because the amount of energy available drops by orders of magnitude the further you get from the transmitter. If you used a focussed beam (which is what they are suggesting) then you need a separate beam that tracks and follows the location of each device. So to cover a very small area you'd…

Well, in principle you can divide one transmitter's attention to several devices over time. (Either by changing the direction of the antenna, or more sophisticatedly via beamforming.) Otherwise I agree with you. Even the tone of this article is unconvincing. I wonder what Andreessen’s due diligence team was thinking, maybe the patents have value?

a16z can make stupid investments, but usually they don't. my guess here is there is more to this than just simple quackery.
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