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I’m Terrified of My New TV

brennancenter.org

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Re: I’m Terrified of My New TV

#181
post #47

We need a Butlerian Jihad against surveillance. You know what will never stop this? Posts on hacker news. Letters to your congressman (LG can donate a fuqton more to his re-election campaign than you can). Voting with your dollar (people who know what a privacy policy is are few and far between). You know what will? Taking these TVs into the street, smashing and burning them. Mobs storming Best Buy and smashing the s…

I'm totally fine with your exciting-as-fuck politics but it will be difficult to get people to that point any time soon, me thinks. I think the problem is that when you say things like "these things don't work" you're glossing over the key to why they don't work: people aren't organized. That's it. It may not be glamorous or fun like tossing over the pigmobile but it's proven to work every single time throughout hist…

> Good old fashioned organizing works.

It does. The "freedom of assembly" is very powerful, even if it doesn't get as much attention as the freedom of speech or the press. Seeing that there are others that share your outrage is an amazing motivator, as it shows, in a very personal way, that you don't have to accomplish everything yourself. Even better, it becomes easier to get others to join in and help as the group grows. Many are reluctant to be a first-mover, but will join a group once they see they will have the support of allies.

Unfortunately, FVEY agencies are not stupid. Mapping relationships to find the focal points that start or enable this kind of social organizing so they can be disrupted is a very good strategy. Even just the phone call-record and COTRAVELER[1] are likely enough to be able to find the leaders/organizers among any particular group. If you add in a few of the other tools we've seen recently, it must have been trivial to create a modern variant of COINTELPRO. Compared to the FBI's efforts under Hoover, GCHQ's "JTRIG"[2] is probably a lot easier and far more effective.

So yes, I totally agree - good old-fashioned organizing is something we need, and we need it fast. More importantly, we need it as a sustained effort to focus on a couple key topics, and we might actually see some progress.

I am not sure this is possible as long as "most" people still have food and a roof over their head. Groups start to form and ideas start to spread, but these efforts inevitably get distracted[3] or sidetracked with off-topic political minutia or divide-and-conquer wedge issues. Unfortunately, I suspect that technology will make organizing people effectively impossible until this mess impacts them personally in big, obvious, painful and/or expensive ways.

Of course, I would absolutely love to be proven wrong sbout this entire topic...

[1] http://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/page/world/how-the-nsa-is-t...

[2] https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/07/14/manipulating-o...

[3] For an example relevant to this crowd, see PHK's "PSYOPS For Nerds" regarding yet another useless and distracting "BSD vs GPL" argument.

Re: I’m Terrified of My New TV

#182
post #47

We need a Butlerian Jihad against surveillance. You know what will never stop this? Posts on hacker news. Letters to your congressman (LG can donate a fuqton more to his re-election campaign than you can). Voting with your dollar (people who know what a privacy policy is are few and far between). You know what will? Taking these TVs into the street, smashing and burning them. Mobs storming Best Buy and smashing the s…

>"people who know what a privacy policy is are few and far between"

>"people are actually angry about this"

So which is it? Do people care or not? Would the purpose of storming Best Buy be to inform the masses or to scare the management of LG?

Re: I’m Terrified of My New TV

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are some historical examples of "waking" people up to a "fact?" I'm not so sure lack of belief is enough to dissipate authority. As the old saying goes, you may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you. Within my lifetime, the surest way to invite a tiny war into your life is act as if political and/or legal authority doesn't exist. Hell, just implying that authority should change was enough to get…

If a large enough percentage of people decide to disregard govts and forcefully defend themselves against their enforcers if necessary, then govts just cease to function and exist. I'm not saying we're there now, or even near a point where that's feasible, but it is one way out.

Good luck trying to convince people to merely get rid of their government. We need an alternative, and the mere lack of government is not it. It will be perceived as chaos, and few people actually want chaos.

In other words, even if we don't want rulers we still need rules. We need a system. Actually, we will have a system, anyway. even "no system" is a system. It's just not clear how it would actually work at the moment (possibilities ranges from "Libertarian Utopia" to "mob rule", including "gang rule" and "local warlords").

Re: I’m Terrified of My New TV

#184
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is true, but there's a bigger problem than the mere fact that a lot of data is being collected. It's how transparent companies are about the data that's collected, along with how long it's stored and who has access to it. One might be fine with having their TV scan their face, but does that mean they're okay with that scan being transported to someone else's servers? Who now owns that information? Can the manufa…

I think the readers of this website vastly underestimate how much the average person understands, and vastly overestimate how much the average person values their privacy. It's starting to get annoying, the folks who want to start a "privacy revolution" even when no one's asking them to.

I think it would be more accurate to say that people vastly underestimate how they actually value their own privacy.

Remember the Holocaust? Well, one thing that helped was an initially mostly harmless ethnic census conducted by Napoleon. Then the Nazi got hold of that data, and used it. Oops. Not that you or your descendants actually risk being put down in the gaz chamber because you turn on your TV, but there's a whole range of nasty stuff that can happen between nothing and summary execution.

Re: I’m Terrified of My New TV

#185

I wasn't particularly disturbed by this article until I got to the following passage regarding the "Voice Command" feature: "Please be aware that if your spoken words include personal or other sensitive information, that information will be among the data captured and transmitted to a third party." I don't think there is a prison horrible enough to send these people to. There is NO legitimate reason that an always-on…

The TV looks like a Samsung.

Re: I’m Terrified of My New TV

#186
post #180

I wasn't particularly disturbed by this article until I got to the following passage regarding the "Voice Command" feature: "Please be aware that if your spoken words include personal or other sensitive information, that information will be among the data captured and transmitted to a third party." I don't think there is a prison horrible enough to send these people to. There is NO legitimate reason that an always-on…

Who said it was always on? They can't guarantee what you or anyone in range of the microphone will say while giving the TV a command, which gets sent off to be processed. That's enough to warrant the warning.

As with laptop webcams, it probably not so much that it's always on, but that it can be turned on at any time without you knowing.

Re: I’m Terrified of My New TV

#187
post #180

I wasn't particularly disturbed by this article until I got to the following passage regarding the "Voice Command" feature: "Please be aware that if your spoken words include personal or other sensitive information, that information will be among the data captured and transmitted to a third party." I don't think there is a prison horrible enough to send these people to. There is NO legitimate reason that an always-on…

Who said it was always on? They can't guarantee what you or anyone in range of the microphone will say while giving the TV a command, which gets sent off to be processed. That's enough to warrant the warning.

You are correct, but if you can turn it on by voice, then it constantly has to be listening when plugged in. The problem isn't that it accepts voice commands. It's that the microphone data is processed remotely, and there is no way to control when it listens.

Re: I’m Terrified of My New TV

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are some historical examples of "waking" people up to a "fact?" I'm not so sure lack of belief is enough to dissipate authority. As the old saying goes, you may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you. Within my lifetime, the surest way to invite a tiny war into your life is act as if political and/or legal authority doesn't exist. Hell, just implying that authority should change was enough to get…

If a large enough percentage of people decide to disregard govts and forcefully defend themselves against their enforcers if necessary, then govts just cease to function and exist. I'm not saying we're there now, or even near a point where that's feasible, but it is one way out.

but it is one way out

Is it really? When has it happened before?

Re: I’m Terrified of My New TV

#189
post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who said it was always on? They can't guarantee what you or anyone in range of the microphone will say while giving the TV a command, which gets sent off to be processed. That's enough to warrant the warning.

As with laptop webcams, it probably not so much that it's always on, but that it can be turned on at any time without you knowing.

Which is why I unplugged the microphone and webcam on mine (Lenovo X201).
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