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Pirate Bay founder Gottfrid Warg faces lengthy jail term

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Re: Pirate Bay founder Gottfrid Warg faces lengthy jail term

#21

Post by at-fates-hands »

tptacek wrote: post #16
jMyles wrote: post #15

Although the details of this story are interesting and compelling, my initial read of this story left me thinking, "Six years is lengthy, eh? I don't think that's considered 'lengthy' in the USA." Our prison system terrifies me.

What's the longest anyone's actually served in custody for breaking into computers in the US, and what's the median sentence actually served? I don't have the data at my fingertips but if I had to bet, I'd bet that it's much less than 6 years. Google: [popehat whale sushi]. One reason you're terrified is that our system (idiotically) goes out of its way to deceptively terrify people. It is in practice not as bad as i…

>>> What's the longest anyone's actually served in custody for breaking into computers in the US, and what's the median sentence actually served?

Here's a list for you: http://www.fierceitsecurity.com/story/hackers-chains-13-bigg...

Up until this week it was Albert Gonzalez for got 20 years for his role in the TJX retail break in. Remember, these are federal sentencing guidelines so no time off for good behavior. You get sentenced to 20 years, you do 20 years, period.

>>> Six years is a long time for what this offense appears to be, though.

This guy is also a repeat offender. In the US, I'm pretty sure with prior offenses with computers, they'd go for a 20-30 year sentence.

Re: Pirate Bay founder Gottfrid Warg faces lengthy jail term

#22

Post by tptacek »

at-fates-hands wrote: post #21
tptacek wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the longest anyone's actually served in custody for breaking into computers in the US, and what's the median sentence actually served? I don't have the data at my fingertips but if I had to bet, I'd bet that it's much less than 6 years. Google: [popehat whale sushi]. One reason you're terrified is that our system (idiotically) goes out of its way to deceptively terrify people. It is in practice not as bad as i…

>>> What's the longest anyone's actually served in custody for breaking into computers in the US, and what's the median sentence actually served? Here's a list for you: http://www.fierceitsecurity.com/story/hackers-chains-13-bigg... Up until this week it was Albert Gonzalez for got 20 years for his role in the TJX retail break in. Remember, these are federal sentencing guidelines so no time off for good behavior. You…

You're totally right, I forgot about the credit card rings. I stand corrected.

Re: Pirate Bay founder Gottfrid Warg faces lengthy jail term

#23

Post by AnthonyMouse »

tptacek wrote: post #3
jimrandomh wrote: post #2

> Defence lawyers said although the hack attacks were carried out using a computer owned by Mr Warg, he was not the person that used it to steal the files. Instead, they said, an unnamed hacker took over this machine and used it to carry out the attacks. Given the circumstances, this claim seems obviously true. People who break into computers usually use broken-into computers as proxies.

Are you familiar with the evidence the court considered? Is it instead the case that you'd have a hard time convicting anyone of hacking-related crimes under any circumstances because of the possibility that someone else might have been pulling the strings? Often when cases like this are reported, the evidentiary details don't make it into the story. It's easy to understand why someone would have a problem with a con…

> Is it instead the case that you'd have a hard time convicting anyone of hacking-related crimes under any circumstances because of the possibility that someone else might have been pulling the strings?

That is kind of a serious problem. It's like the "open WiFi" defense. It's completely plausible that someone else actually used your WiFi or compromised your computer, but at the same time some people have this visceral reaction to allowing it as a defense because it's so hard to disprove and can be used by anyone.

Re: Pirate Bay founder Gottfrid Warg faces lengthy jail term

#24

Post by sslalready »

grecy wrote: post #4

I find it hard to believe that a guy as smart as Gottfrid would "hack" a government computer in 2012 when he's obviously extremely aware of the magnifying glass that's on him from governments and companies all over the world. > the pair downloaded police and social security files. What exactly are those? and what would he even want them for? > In a separate trial in 2013, Mr Warg and accomplice were found guilty of b…

>> the pair downloaded police and social security files. > What exactly are those? and what would he even want them for?

The mainframe logs show that a dataset containing a copy of the Schengen SIS was downloaded from the hacked mainframe. I don't know if the file was even found on mr Svartholm's computer. The prosecutors just concluded that they couldn't tell what happened with the datat that had been copied out from the system and therefore mr Svartholm probably did something evil with it.

So what's in Schengen SIS? It's a list of personal details for more than 1 million(!!) people that are either wanted by participating states, under surveillance or people that just lost their passports or other identity documents. You can read more here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Information_System#Da...

The government of course would like to claim that the data managed in Schengen SIS is extremly sensitive. Meanwhile they ship this data over the internet with plaintext FTP to various entities participating in Schengen SIS on a monthly basis (updates etc).

>> In a separate trial in 2013, Mr Warg and accomplice were found guilty of breaking into the computer systems of computer services firm Logica, which was doing work for Sweden's tax office and a bank. > Again, why would he hack into a bank knowing so many eyes are on him?

He was completely acquitted of the charges involving Nordea Bank in the Court of Appeals (Hovratten).

Re: Pirate Bay founder Gottfrid Warg faces lengthy jail term

#25

Post by [deleted] »

jacquesm wrote: post #10
tptacek wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a reasonable concern to have, but it's worth being aware that it's the exact same concern people had about Hans Reiser. Intelligence and judgement are orthogonal, and sometimes even in slight opposition. If you want to consider a different perspective: I'm an example of someone who does not have a hard time understand how someone who has enjoyed the rush of getting over on the entire media industry from behind…

The local police force here has a test to see if you 'have what it takes' to be a part of their cyber security squad or whatever they call it. On a lark I took part in it (the test was pretty simple, at least, that's what I thought). After taking the test (and knowing full well I had no intention to follow through on applying for a job with them, I just can't look at puzzles without getting this itch to solve them) I…

[deleted]

Re: Pirate Bay founder Gottfrid Warg faces lengthy jail term

#26

Post by lucb1e »

mixmax wrote: post #20

The courtcase has been followed closely by the Danish media, especially the tech-savvy version2.dk that has had a reporter in the courtroom every day of the trial. It has caused quite a stir as all sorts of problems with CSC, the prosecutor and police investigation came to light during the hearings. Some highlights: - CSC, that handles a large part of Danish infrastructure including social security numbers, police ba…

> tried to establish Jacob Applebaum and Warg as friends because Applebaum retweeted one of Wargs tweets (only friends do that!)

I understand the ignorance displayed by the judge here, but did the judge also see being Applebaum's friend as a bad thing?

Re: Pirate Bay founder Gottfrid Warg faces lengthy jail term

#27

Post by fleitz »

hoozters wrote: post #9

Wow.. so in Sweden he first got 2 years, reduced to one. Imagine that being in the united states. What, 25 to life? Just saying, it's interesting how this concept of "justice" is treated so subjectively depending on where on this planet you are located. Nothing new under the sun, but still.

Yeah, it's pretty scary to live in countries that have higher incarceration rates than China, Russia, or North Korea.

They hand out 25 year sentences like candy.

Re: Pirate Bay founder Gottfrid Warg faces lengthy jail term

#28

Post by jacquesm »

tptacek wrote: post #11
jacquesm wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The local police force here has a test to see if you 'have what it takes' to be a part of their cyber security squad or whatever they call it. On a lark I took part in it (the test was pretty simple, at least, that's what I thought). After taking the test (and knowing full well I had no intention to follow through on applying for a job with them, I just can't look at puzzles without getting this itch to solve them) I…

Easy: breaking into computers is very, very fun, and when something feels like a game, it's easy to treat it that way. If you have a hard time believing anyone would do something like this, look at the 1990s: we got a book practically every year about one hacking group or another breaking into phone switches, credit reporting agencies, government and military networks, and financial institutions. If you can do it, an…

> Plenty of smart people did stuff like this.

I know, I know a couple of them. I just don't understand them. Why cross that line? Why risk jail, your career, a whole pile of hardship? The real life consequences is what I'm wondering about, it's as if there is some kind of disconnect there between action and subsequent consequences.

If it is only because it is 'unlikely that you're ever going to get caught' then that's a gamblers argument. (I don't understand gamblers either, so that might be an explanation right there.)

Re: Pirate Bay founder Gottfrid Warg faces lengthy jail term

#29

Post by chvid »

mixmax wrote: post #20

The courtcase has been followed closely by the Danish media, especially the tech-savvy version2.dk that has had a reporter in the courtroom every day of the trial. It has caused quite a stir as all sorts of problems with CSC, the prosecutor and police investigation came to light during the hearings. Some highlights: - CSC, that handles a large part of Danish infrastructure including social security numbers, police ba…

This case is all over the Danish tech media and it is very hard to judge the technical quality of the underlaying police work; though I am pretty sure that it is much better than what the "internet" gives police credit for.

The troubles the lawyers had with the tech is noted even by the lawyers themselves:

http://jyllands-posten.dk/indland/politiretsvaesen/ECE716092...

"Hacker case plagued by complex technical evidence" - all in Danish.

What is clear is that Warg's computer was used and contained the stolen records. And JT succesfully denied police access to his encrypted computer. The police were unable to prove his involvement beyond aiding.

Re: Pirate Bay founder Gottfrid Warg faces lengthy jail term

#30

Post by mixmax »

lucb1e wrote: post #26
mixmax wrote: post #20

The courtcase has been followed closely by the Danish media, especially the tech-savvy version2.dk that has had a reporter in the courtroom every day of the trial. It has caused quite a stir as all sorts of problems with CSC, the prosecutor and police investigation came to light during the hearings. Some highlights: - CSC, that handles a large part of Danish infrastructure including social security numbers, police ba…

> tried to establish Jacob Applebaum and Warg as friends because Applebaum retweeted one of Wargs tweets (only friends do that!) I understand the ignorance displayed by the judge here, but did the judge also see being Applebaum's friend as a bad thing?

Applebaum was an expert witness called in to testify on how a computer could be remote controlled, and the prosecutor tried to have him dismissed based on the retweet. He ended up testifying, so I guess the attempt wasn't successful.
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