Ask HN: Why do you guys work so much?

I work at a startup in silicon valley. Most of my colleagues spend a lot of hours at the office--usually at least 12hr days. I know most of these people (including myself) could make substantially more money working at a more established company and that our options are unlikely to be worth more than the salary we will have "sacrificed" by the time an exit opportunity comes along. Now, the reason I'm at a startup is to learn about doing a startup. But I think most of my peers have zero entrepreneurial ambition. There's also a shortage of engineering talent. So.. why are you breaking your back working on someone else's dream (and potential fortune) when the incentives (as far as I can tell) don't warrant it? If you love hacking, why not keep bank hours at the office and work on your own projects outside of that? I used to buy into the myth that bigger companies that pay proper salaries are like working for some soul-destroying 1960s IBM corporate mediocrity. But now I have friends at bigger companies--the difference seems to be that they have unlimited resources, big annual bonuses, nicer office furniture and less pressure. Otherwise we work on very similar things. Maybe you like to "stay hungry"... well, why not do your own startup instead of staying hungry working on something that will make a handful of people (not including yourself) very rich? I apologize if this comes across as confrontational--that's not my intention. I'm more just kind of baffled, and I assume I'm missing something, hence the ask. Thanks.

I've worked at three different startups so far, and I think it all boils down to two things: how much you believe in the product, and what the culture is like.

At my first startup the culture was really great (in the beginning, at least) and the product was really cool. I had more fun working in that office than I would if I had been going out every night after work instead, so the 12 hour days didn't seem intrusive.

At my second startup, it was the complete opposite. The culture sucked, and the product sucked. Which is why I put in what you're calling "bank hours" for a year and then left. Lots of the people there worked much, much longer days than I, and it's because they either believed in the product or they had responsibilities outside of work keeping them there (wife, kids, etc).

Just a few anecdotal observations that (so far) held true for all the places I've worked.

For me, I've been on all sides of this. Employee of a well funded company with lot's of benefits, great income and a Shit-Ton of rules, policies and procedures. I've been an entrepreneur starting my own company, building everything from a mere idea, raising capital, hiring teams, the whole experience.

Currently I'm an employee and fairly large share holder in someone else's startup. The wages are not that great, but we are a close team, we all live together, we share cars, we hang out together, we're a "family". As we become more and more successful the perks get better and better. We go from sharing apartments to sharing houses, from sharing a car to sharing more cars. We went from working on top of each other in the apartments to our very large and well decorated offices and the family grows. I get to try different approaches at solutions and have way more control over the outcome than I ever had as an employee at a big well funded corporate job.

We all have our own 'why', but logic might not be it. For me, I really enjoy having a mission and being on that mission with my friends. As it's been said "it's about the journey".

I struggled with a similar question to this when I first began working, and I think my own answers to that one will help you in answering this one.

First, the way you framed the question implies many external motivators for work don't match with the possible rewards, when in fact a lot of people who are sweating hard for someone else's dream are driven by internal motivators. Why not put your all into what your do, regardless of who benefits the most? I guarantee you, you will gain a lot of insight into what your capabilities are when you find out your maximum operating capacity. At the very least, when I see someone that puts enormous effort into something they don't necessarily believe it, it makes me contemplate just how much effort they would put into something they truly do believe in.

Next, to completely demolish my last point, I came to understand that all of these internal and external motivations were very weak when it came to whether or not I'd execute on something. The truth, as I see it, is that motivation is like having a sailboat which rely on strong winds to blow you in one direction or another. When these winds die down in one direction, you start steering your rudder towards another direction that can return you to the same level of progress towards your goal. Instead, the key is having discipline, which is like having an engine that could push out in any direction no matter the state of the wind. These startup environments are one of the ultimate areas to test and strengthen discipline, as you have to push the limits that most people would shrug off as impossible work conditions. Succeeding in that environment is also a means of building your confidence up in order to take on larger tasks, such as starting your own business.

It's also possible that a lot of the people you are seeing working long hours are doing so because they're optimizing for long term gains (such as increased job skills, more company responsibilities, startup contacts) which will increase the likelihood of their startup being successful when they do strike out on their own.

> Most of my colleagues spend a lot of hours at the office--usually at least 12hr days.

I have coworkers and friends that do exactly what you're describing, and I don't know why they'd tell you they do it, but I have my own theories about why it would be rational to work long hours for no additional pay.

First, why working long hours seems effective:

- Showing up at the office isn't really work. I think Woody Allen once said "80% of success is showing up". When you're present all the time, people tend to think that you're more important, more useful, and more reliable. I work from home often, and I can certainly feel my importance in the company diminishing, even though the quality and speed of my work has never been higher. Humans seem to highly value grunting at other humans face to face. If I wanted to move up in the company, I would absolutely have my face seen as much as possible, and a good way to do that is to be there for long hours. Besides, it's not that hard to be "working long hours" while actually reading the internet for most of the day, which is what a lot of people would be doing at home after work anyway.

- Hours are also an objective measurement, while performance is often very subjective. The biggest complaint that I hear from other employees about other employees is that someone isn't looking busy enough or was barely in the office at all. If someone produces shitty output, it can be rationalized if the person is friendly and appears motivated, because we love people who are trying hard at anything. If someone gets all their work done and leaves early, they don't look like a team player and people get jealous and resentful. I think it's a common human response. For office politics, which often determines salary and promotions, it often makes more sense to be there for long hours than it does to produce amazing output. People love a martyr.

Some reasons you might choose to put in long hours at a startup or small company with poor benefits and salary, instead of a BigCo with higher pay and better benefits:

- You can gain rank very quickly in a startup. As a programmer, the best I can really do as an employee is either become a "lead" or move toward management and try to become a startup CTO. I don't personally find this to have a lot of value, but I do think it's common for people to work in a startup for a year or two, get some fancy title and be able to claim credit for a lot of things, then apply to other companies and try to enter at a higher level. In a growing startup, you don't have that many stakeholders to convince of your value, and if showing up is an influential factor in your promotions, then it could be rational to spend lots of hours at work. I've seen high-hour-low-output programmers transition to higher levels of management, obtained mostly through long hours, which they will probably keep them at the same level in their next job. If you've ever encountered a bullshitter that adds no value but seems to have great credentials, then long hours might have been a factor in how they got there.

- Similarly, other coworkers have transitioned to other teams, instantly giving them years of "experience" on their resumes. Late nights in the office helped show the dedication and build enough trust to make that transition without actually being qualified for the new position.

- I know others that would never get hired at a BigCo, especially as a programmer, but by staying at a startup and looking valuable with long days, they get many more years of experience, more paychecks, a bigger social network, and a pathway into management. For people in this position, long hours are a good way to appear to be contributing without actually having to perform that well.

- It's easy to be misinformed about the value of equity, especially if the founders have done a good job of selling the idea of everyone getting rich if the company succeeds. Thinking of yourself as an owner makes it easier to justify working longer hours.

- If someone has an interest in learning a new skill, working late nights could be looked at as continuing education that also gets you paid. I'd certainly have learned more working for free at a company than I did in years of university, and I put a lot of hours into university work. A company can also be a useful structure to get help and to grow skills, especially if you're under-skilled for your position.

- A lot of people genuinely do want to give their all to something. This makes sense to me too, because some people certainly do find a sort of bliss in life-enveloping levels of work and discipline. I think people tend to view this as an artist thing or an obsessive entrepreneurial thing. If you can find a deep sense of purpose in your daily job that would make you want to work long hours, that probably feels just as rewarding to some people as creating that environment on their own, with less personal financial risk (and of course, less gain).

> If you love hacking, why not keep bank hours at the office and work on your own projects outside of that?

I do exactly that. I work at an app startup, but I keep them limited to about 8 hours a day (well, 7, if you count lunch). I believe I provide good value for the company, at least relative to the other talent they're able to attract. I find being in an office to be very mentally draining, so I try to work from home (which would be much harder at a BigCo), so I'm not burned out by the end of the day.

When I'm done with work, at least a few days a week, I hack on projects at night. I've learned so much more in my time outside of work than at work, so I'm pretty happy with the arrangement. I'll be releasing an app that I've made using this approach pretty soon. If I can make an extra $40k/year from my part-time app development, I'm still ahead of what I could get at a BigCo, and I'm closer to my dream of going indie.