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Tim Cook Speaks Up

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Re: Tim Cook Speaks Up

#561

I am hetero, and I always asked myself: why all that fuzz about people being gay or anything else. I don't need to be proud to be gay or hetero or whatever, I just don't get it.. I have gay friends and never had anything against people with other sexuality, but I truly hate the Gay Pride in our country. I think it is pathetic to be proud of your sexual orientation and feeling a need to show that off. This will defini…

You don't need to be proud of being straight because being straight is the default - and society doesn't give you any shit for being straight. Pride - in race, in sexuality, in gender, in whatever else - comes from ostracism and marginalization. You band together, develop a group identity, form communities, etc, because the world treats you poorly. Gay Pride is a development out of necessity, not just for parade floa…

I'm Proud Catholic. Now let's see how many down votes I will get. Probably voted by the same people who apparently don't care about your sex orientation. Or religion...

Most gays hate Catholic Church. Do they believe in freedoms that they demand then?

Re: Tim Cook Speaks Up

#562

This thread is growing faster than I can read it. Yeah, Tim Cook coming out as gay is a positive thing, but it's not particularly novel or revolutionary. If I were a young closeted gay person and someone said, "Apple's CEO, Tim Cook, just came out as gay," I wouldn't jump for joy for the future of gay people in technology. I'd instead make damn sure I didn't carry any Apple products in public for fear of some strange…

> I'd instead make damn sure I didn't carry any Apple products in public for fear of some stranger connecting the dots and bullying me.

This makes little sense in a world where every second device you see is an iDevice.

Re: Tim Cook Speaks Up

#563
post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tim Cook faces 2 years in jail in Singapore if he has activity even in a private room. Three days ago, the Court of Appeal has just judged the law was conform to the constitution, because everyone is guaranteed equal rights no matter their sex, race or religion, and this doesn't include sexuality. The Straits Times: http://www.straitstimes.com/news/singapore/courts-crime/stor... The original judgement: https://s3.ama…

Performing a sexual act is a conscious behavior, wilfully chosen by the participants (except in cases of rape, which is not relevant to this discussion). Law is meant to regulate behaviors. It's valid to make sexual acts illegal. It doesn't violate non-discrimination rights because wilful participation by any person is just as illegal as participation by any other person . Laws that say "this is legal for people with…

I think the proponents of same sex marriage would respond that what they are trying to do is not prevent the government from regulating behavior (which, as you say, is the essence of lawmaking), but prevent the government from treating persons in same sex relationships differently from persons in opposite sex relationships. The key question is whether the government can discriminate based on sexual orientation.

In the U.S., the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment prohibits a state from denying any person "the equal protection of the laws." This would appear to forbid discrimination based on any characteristic at all. Of course, governments make distinctions based on people's characteristics all the time. These range from the mundane (persons with poor vision can be required to wear corrective lenses while driving) to the highly consequential (American citizens of Japanese ancestry can be interred during a war against Japan).

The history of the Equal Protection Clause, then, is a long and messy process of sorting out what kinds of discrimination are permissible and what aren't. And there has been a lot of movement, especially during last few decades. Consider that during the lifetime of George Takei, the EPC was interpreted to permit the internment of his family (Korematsu v. United States, 1944) and giving him the right (in California) to marry his husband of the same sex (Hollingsworth v. Perry, 2013).

The current standard is that that you can discriminate on a basis other than certain "suspect" classifications if the discrimination is reasonably related to a legitimate government interest.

In the recent Windsor case, the Supreme Court concluded that the federal Defense of Marriage Act failed to meet even that minimal standard. Many lower courts have invalidated state same sex marriage bans on the same basis.

You can argue that it is the place of the legislature to decide what classifications it can use in lawmaking, but that raises two problems. First, the clause is part of the Constitution and it must impose some limit on the power of state legislatures, and there needs to be a process for interpreting what that limit is. Second, history has shown that the political process doesn't always protect unpopular minorities (though there are also good arguments that courts are not that much better).

Re: Tim Cook Speaks Up

#564
post #536

Excellent news. I am from India where being gay is a crime in this country. Leaders of this country believe that being gay is a disease and it can be 'cured'[0]. According to Indian Penal Code 377[1], if you are gay you can be imprisoned for life. I had a friend and two years ago he committed suicide because he was gay. In India it's not easy to be gay. Parents and societal pressures can make anyones life living hell…

While what you say is true, for the benefit of the readers not very familiar with India I would like to add a few things for context. If from the name of the politician linked by the parent comment you come to the conclusion that homosexuality is frowned upon only by muslim politicians, you couldnt be more wrong. India is an incredibly high variance country. In some metros you would find gay pubs and bars, open kissi…

> In metros you would find gay pubs and bars, open kissing on the streets among gay partners with no one bothered a bit

I really doubt this. Kissing in public is highly frowned upon for heterosexuals only and there will be a shitstorm if gay couple found openly kissing. Take this incident, happened in September 2014 in Mumbai/Bombay, two couples were harassed by police just because they hugged publicly[0]. Police harass couples all the time if they found indulging in PDA. Read this BBC news report for instance[1].

Wiki [2] says: "Public display of affection is regarded as unacceptable in India. Kissing and hugging are taboo."

[0] - http://www.mid-day.com/articles/mumbai-couple-harassed-fined...

[1] - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7871304.stm

[2] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_display_of_affection#Ind...

Re: Tim Cook Speaks Up

#565
post #491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Dropping sympathy" for the feminist movement as a response a few bad feminists that you've encountered is not really justified, or rational. When you are made to feel unwanted, excluded, and otherwise not welcome it is natural to go elsewhere in search of inclusiveness. This is a far more common reaction than that of adopting sympathy for those excluding you. No aspect of this should be surprising to a feminist.

Some people aren't going to understand your statement, because they are locked into ideas like 'feminism' == 'desire for equal rights'. Too many people who call themselves feminists actually do not believe in equal rights, and present feminism as a justification for bad behaviors. If this is how you experience feminism, this is going to influence your notion of what the word feminism actually means, in practice.

> Is this not the case?

It should be the case. In practice, it is often not the case. If you doubt this, search 'feminist' on youtube, watch a dozen random videos, and try to identify the issues and beliefs which the speaker sees as intrinsically 'feminist' ones, and ask yourself whether those issues and beliefs are really in support of equality. Its a bit of a mixed bag.

I'm not trying to attack feminism, as I strongly believe in equality and we have a lot of work to do. And obviously there are anti-feminists who have always tried to distort the messages of feminists, and fabricate their own. But these days, those manipulators don't have to try very hard.

I don't see how we can fix this, though. The commercial approach to a similar problem would be absurd in this case: creating centralized certification body regulating which 'feminist goals/speakers/blogs/books/lines-of-argument/etc' are deemed 'truly feminist'.

Re: Tim Cook Speaks Up

#566
post #459

In case you think this is no big deal, here's the updated list of Fortune 500 CEOs who are openly gay: Tim Cook

What does being openly gay mean exactly? And how do you know there aren't others on the list?

About 2% of people self-identify as gay. So 10 people on that 500 list are likely to be gay, give or take.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014...

Is your theory that the remaining nine should issue press releases? How do you know others aren't openly gay with the only people that matter: friends, family, loved ones; as opposed to feeling the need to broadcast it to the media.

Straight people don't go around declaring their sexuality, nor ever feel the need to. Gay people shouldn't feel the need to either. That is a critical hallmark of equality.

Do I have to email the press to declare that I'm openly gay and running a Fortune 500 company?

Should I declare that I'm openly straight and running a Fortune 500 company?

It's an absurd premise, and it presumes that we all need to be declaring our sexuality. That another person has a right to know my sexual orientation. It's not only false but disgusting.

Re: Tim Cook Speaks Up

#567
post #536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While what you say is true, for the benefit of the readers not very familiar with India I would like to add a few things for context. If from the name of the politician linked by the parent comment you come to the conclusion that homosexuality is frowned upon only by muslim politicians, you couldnt be more wrong. India is an incredibly high variance country. In some metros you would find gay pubs and bars, open kissi…

> In metros you would find gay pubs and bars, open kissing on the streets among gay partners with no one bothered a bit I really doubt this. Kissing in public is highly frowned upon for heterosexuals only and there will be a shitstorm if gay couple found openly kissing. Take this incident, happened in September 2014 in Mumbai/Bombay, two couples were harassed by police just because they hugged publicly[0]. Police har…

> I really doubt this.

You have not been frequenting the right places then. Come to Bombay, come to Delhi, its a frequent sight outside the gay bars, more so in Bombay than Delhi. Have to admit that the first time I saw it I was indeed caught by surprise.

In some places you might get beaten up (yeah even possibly by the cops), or have acid thrown at your face (this punishment is reserved exclusive for women and applied mainly when they cut across caste or religious boundaries). According to many in the the current ruling political party, such acts of violence are eminently condonable and justified.

As I said, it is very high variance place, I am firmly in my thirties now and yet I never stop learning / experiencing something new about my country as I travel. The key is to cut across those invisible boundaries. Come to the North East its a whole different country, different value system different culture.

Given that you posted about Bangalore current events, I am sure you know of that sri ram sene idiot http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sri_Ram_Sena http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pramod_Muthalik

EDIT: Yep!! some downvotes on all of my comments on this thread. Those took a while to come, I am expecting more. The belief system that I am complaining about does have their champions, and at politically significant levels.

Re: Tim Cook Speaks Up

#568

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a hard time thinking of anyone as Christian if they ignore the basic tenants of what the Bible says. Homosexuality is very clearly spelled out as wrong. So are plenty of other things of course and the Bible doesn't specify homosexual behavior as any more or less wrong than any other sinful act. Christians shouldn't be treating homosexuals any different than anyone else, but that includes letting people know th…

Drawing pictures of things god has made and especially using them religiously is spelled out very clearly as wrong, repeatedly and at length, but the Christians often represent themselves with drawings of a fish and keep drawing pictures of Jesus simply everywhere: "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below." However you can rape th…

Let me add a refrain to your hyperbole by saying that I too am shocked that Christians do not practice Old Testament Jewish customs.

Re: Tim Cook Speaks Up

#569
Apple will go to great lengths to steal Microsoft's thunder.

I jest. This is a momentous announcement. But, I look forward to the day when being a gay CEO (politician, sports figure, etc.) is not newsworthy.

Re: Tim Cook Speaks Up

#570
post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow. I feel so sorry for you that you live in a supposedly civilized country and you have to live with that. What a shame.

> Wow. I feel so sorry for you that you live in a supposedly civilized country You might have missed the part where he said he lives in Texas.

Oh I saw it. That's exactly what I'm talking about.

The United States constantly labels itself the best country in the world, the pinnacle of democracy and freedom, etc. when unfortunately the reality for millions of people is not so good.

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