Tim Cook Speaks Up • Hacker News Board

Re: Tim Cook Speaks Up

#491

Post by Kalium » Thu, Oct 30, 2014, 5:32 PM UTC

yourad_io wrote: post #468

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel there is a big difference between gay equality and what a lot of young men feel like is a shrill feminism that seems to be much more about axe grinding, political correctness, censorship, and entitlements than any sort of drive towards a true equality. After you've been called a potential rapist several times in an academic or workplace setting just for your gender, you stop sympathizing with the modern femini…

> After you've been called a potential rapist several times in an academic or workplace setting just for your gender, you stop sympathizing with the modern feminist movement. So, there are some bad feminists around. [1] When people are absurd, feel free to 'absurd' right back at them (i.e. "Sure, I'm a potential rapist - as much as you are a potential murderer!"). "Dropping sympathy" for the feminist movement as a re…

> "Dropping sympathy" for the feminist movement as a response a few bad feminists that you've encountered is not really justified, or rational.

When you are made to feel unwanted, excluded, and otherwise not welcome it is natural to go elsewhere in search of inclusiveness. This is a far more common reaction than that of adopting sympathy for those excluding you. No aspect of this should be surprising to a feminist.

Re: Tim Cook Speaks Up

#492

Post by alexbecker » Thu, Oct 30, 2014, 5:32 PM UTC

avinassh wrote: post #475

Excellent news. I am from India where being gay is a crime in this country. Leaders of this country believe that being gay is a disease and it can be 'cured'[0]. According to Indian Penal Code 377[1], if you are gay you can be imprisoned for life. I had a friend and two years ago he committed suicide because he was gay. In India it's not easy to be gay. Parents and societal pressures can make anyones life living hell…

Reading [1], I was absolutely disgusted not only by the facts of the case, but the tone of the reporting.

Re: Tim Cook Speaks Up

#493

Post by dwild » Thu, Oct 30, 2014, 5:34 PM UTC

gfodor wrote: post #447

dwild wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure there's nothing wrong with having an unpopular opinion but it's wrong to hurt other people based on an opinion (in this case he hurt them by limiting their right).

Donating money to support a campaign on a proposition supported by 52% of voters is not 'hurting people', and saying so is hyperbolic and ridiculous. The reality is that the gay rights movement did not have the unprecedented swiftness it did by alienating those who feel differently about homosexuality. It traditionally has been a movement predicated on the idea that people who didn't support gay rights could be conve…

Supporting a cause that limit someone right based on their sexual orientation is hurting people. The fact that 52% support it doesn't change the fact that you limit someone right. Even if 99% people believe that brown hair people shouldn't have the right to take the bus, it wouldn't be less wrong. It's not magically right to limit rights because the majority agree.

I never said that what people did to Eich is right, I currently don't have an opinion on that because I doesn't know enough.

Re: Tim Cook Speaks Up

#494

Post by sysk » Thu, Oct 30, 2014, 5:34 PM UTC

arnarbi wrote: post #367

blktiger wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a hard time thinking of anyone as Christian if they ignore the basic tenants of what the Bible says. Homosexuality is very clearly spelled out as wrong. So are plenty of other things of course and the Bible doesn't specify homosexual behavior as any more or less wrong than any other sinful act. Christians shouldn't be treating homosexuals any different than anyone else, but that includes letting people know th…

Millions of Christians don't take the Bible as the literal word of God. Several Christian churches have no problem with blessing the marriage of gay couples. A Christian is just someone who believes in Jesus Christ as a messiah. You are referring to something much more specific.

Do you mean millions of Christians don't take the Bible as the word of god? Because "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death" (Leviticus 20:13) doesn't seem to leave the place for a non-literal interpretation which would not condemn gay sex (without some serious mind bending).

Re: Tim Cook Speaks Up

#495

Post by jshevek » Thu, Oct 30, 2014, 5:34 PM UTC

robomartin wrote: post #393

ForrestN wrote: post #235

I am incredibly grateful to Cook for this, not least because of how it will affect young gay people. When I was a child, I felt generally good about myself. I was reasonably smart, well-spoken, curious, and so on, and I wanted to do something important with my life. Some nagging part of me suspected I was gay from very early on, but I resisted it intensely. I wasn't really afraid of being mistreated, although I proba…

I applaud this. I am not gay. Conventional family, kids, etc. Oh, yes, I am also an atheist which, today, in the US, is worst than being gay in some circles. As I am sure a lot of you know, the reality show Survivor features a male homosexual couple this year. Bravo! We watch the show with our kids every week. Yes, they ask questions. The little ones cover their eyes when anybody kisses on TV anyway. Seeing two men k…

Several statements he made in this post seemed weirdly manipulative to me, and that was one of them.

I mean, its great that he chooses and advocates the view that homosexuality can be a 'gift'. That it can be a positive thing! Props for that!

But the phrasing...does he really believe that the imaginary being he worships chose for him to be gay? Like the creator of the universe is really sitting there saying "oh, I'll make this one straight! and this one bi! and this one gay!"

Re: Tim Cook Speaks Up

#496

Post by dwild » Thu, Oct 30, 2014, 5:35 PM UTC

scragg wrote: post #465

dwild wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you experienced that only from older people? We can only hope that this kind of bigotry go away with new generations.

Older. Negative experiences with younger people were just ignorant and probably did not intend harm. Some older folks will say things with pure hate and complete disregard to our feelings. I understand when Cook mentions the empathy you gain when being a part of a minority. I get anxious when walking into a restaurant that I am unfamiliar with. I think to myself... are we are going to be welcome here, is someone goin…

We still have hope then, thanks!

Re: Tim Cook Speaks Up

#497

Post by brandonmenc » Thu, Oct 30, 2014, 5:36 PM UTC

arrrg wrote: post #433

Jedd wrote: post #20

I wonder how carefully crafted this line was: ... I consider being gay among the greatest gifts God has given me. It seems a particularly odd thing to slip in, on so many levels.

Is it really so hard to believe that he might just be religious? Jesus Christ, atheists are the worst (as can be seen here in this thread). And I say that as an atheist …

I hate to "me too" this comment, but I agree. I don't even tell people I'm an atheist anymore so as not to be associated.

Someone in the thread actually claimed this:

> I am also an atheist which, today, in the US, is worst than being gay in some circles.

They're not even remotely close in terms of persecution. And I use that word lightly when referring to the modern atheist.

Re: Tim Cook Speaks Up

#498

Post by pkfrank » Thu, Oct 30, 2014, 5:40 PM UTC

exodust wrote: post #481

Bud wrote: post #459

In case you think this is no big deal, here's the updated list of Fortune 500 CEOs who are openly gay: Tim Cook

It's a big deal because you made a list?

Because the list evidences that Tim Cook is the ONLY openly gay CEO of a Fortune 500 company (and he happens to be at the head of #5).

Re: Tim Cook Speaks Up

#499

Post by potatolicious » Thu, Oct 30, 2014, 5:40 PM UTC

unknownBits wrote: post #470

I am hetero, and I always asked myself: why all that fuzz about people being gay or anything else. I don't need to be proud to be gay or hetero or whatever, I just don't get it.. I have gay friends and never had anything against people with other sexuality, but I truly hate the Gay Pride in our country. I think it is pathetic to be proud of your sexual orientation and feeling a need to show that off. This will defini…

You don't need to be proud of being straight because being straight is the default - and society doesn't give you any shit for being straight.

Pride - in race, in sexuality, in gender, in whatever else - comes from ostracism and marginalization. You band together, develop a group identity, form communities, etc, because the world treats you poorly. Gay Pride is a development out of necessity, not just for parade floats.

This goes beyond sexuality - there is a massive "geek" community out there that gathers for conventions, concerts, and whatever else you can think of. Much of this community formed as a result of ostracism, both real and perceived.

Ditto race. Blacks, Asians, and Latinos band together - both formally in organizations, or informally in communities - to combat the racism its members experience, and support its victims.

When you find any description of people marginalized, odds are you will find communities and organizations that have formed around it. Pride is a natural response - a collective "there is nothing wrong with being us!" is a natural response to a society that tells you that what you are is wrong.

Now, to address your context of your comment - you're incredibly lucky if you don't "get" gay pride. I think most marginalized people would like to live like you - never having to belong to a collective to defend your being, or having society treat you like an individual instead of a constant outsider. To be in a position where this marginalization is invisible to you is a fortunate circumstance indeed.

So it's particularly annoying to those of us who are still marginalized in society - in whatever ways - that you've turned this around to play the victim. You live an enviable life, where you don't need to band together with other marginalized people out of desperation or necessity, yet you have the gall to turn it around as if you're being punished for it.

Re: Tim Cook Speaks Up

#500

Post by dreamweapon » Thu, Oct 30, 2014, 5:41 PM UTC

Tloewald wrote: post #378

angersock wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. Now if only we could remind people that there's nothing wrong with having an unpopular opinion. After all, Brendan Eich has done more for computing than Cook ever will.

Brendan Eich is entitled to his opinion, and a large not for profit is entitled not to want someone with that opinion as a figurehead. As for who has done more for what — web browsers were going to have a scripting language. Is Javascript so astoundingly good that we can only assume any alternative would have been worse?

Brendan Eich is entitled to his opinion, and a large not for profit is entitled not to want someone with that opinion as a figurehead.

Right. It's really quite simple.

All this support of Eich as some kind of a martyr (or a victim of reverse bigotry, in any way comparable to the bigotry Eich promotes through his donations) is grossly misplaced.