Tim Cook Speaks Up • Hacker News Board

Re: Tim Cook Speaks Up

#411

Post by dgacmu » Thu, Oct 30, 2014, 4:30 PM UTC

Tloewald wrote: post #378

angersock wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. Now if only we could remind people that there's nothing wrong with having an unpopular opinion. After all, Brendan Eich has done more for computing than Cook ever will.

Brendan Eich is entitled to his opinion, and a large not for profit is entitled not to want someone with that opinion as a figurehead. As for who has done more for what — web browsers were going to have a scripting language. Is Javascript so astoundingly good that we can only assume any alternative would have been worse?

Of course he's entitled to his opinion. The public is also entitled to use whatever criteria they wish to choose where they spend their dollars, ad views, or seek employment. A board of directors is also entitled to weigh the effects of its officers public statements and actions on the future health of the company.

Note that I draw a very strong distinction here between officers and typical employees -- typical employees are not allowed to speak for the company unless specifically authorized, whereas a high-profile officer's public conduct is more inextricably tangled with the company itself. Someone might rightly interpret Eich's donation as an indication that Mozilla would be a less-friendly environment for a gay programmer than another company would, because Eich's opinions and policies are directly able to shape the culture therein.

There's no magic here. There are many ways in which executives are subject to substantially greater scrutiny than ordinary employees. This probably sucks for them, but in today's environment, it's part of the job. Changing that - well, that's a longer discussion.

Re: Tim Cook Speaks Up

#412

Post by scottjad » Thu, Oct 30, 2014, 4:31 PM UTC

bobcostas55 wrote: post #112

>I’m proud to be gay, and I consider being gay among the greatest gifts God has given me. Americans are so weird.

Yeah, I know, the US is literally the only place on earth where many people are still religious. South America and Africa and India and countries with Muslim majorities are totally not religious. Just those weird Americans.

Re: Tim Cook Speaks Up

#413

Post by drzaiusapelord » Thu, Oct 30, 2014, 4:31 PM UTC

cdr wrote: post #305

broodbucket wrote: post #4

Being in such a progressive community (i.e. young nerdy people), it's easy to forget that this is an enormous deal for some people. A friend of mine recently came out as transgender and the general response was "oh, cool, good for you". It's hard to fathom what it's like for people who aren't in such a supportive environment. There are undoubtedly many people who will no longer purchase Apple products because of this…

Don't overestimate the progressiveness of young men. Look at how terrible so many of the HN comments are whenever there's a submission relating in any way to women.

I feel there is a big difference between gay equality and what a lot of young men feel like is a shrill feminism that seems to be much more about axe grinding, political correctness, censorship, and entitlements than any sort of drive towards a true equality. After you've been called a potential rapist several times in an academic or workplace setting just for your gender, you stop sympathizing with the modern feminist movement.

I think purposely conflating gay rights and feminism is more than a little disingenuous. LGBT movements empower both genders, feminism empowers only one.

I think its very possible to be socially progressive in thought but not be a cheerleader for the modern feminist agenda. These things don't necessarily contradict each other.

Re: Tim Cook Speaks Up

#414

Post by parasubvert » Thu, Oct 30, 2014, 4:32 PM UTC

kyrra wrote: post #262

wmt wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see anything about any Gods hating gays. Levictus compares men having sex with other men being as big of a sin as cursing your parents or having sex with a woman during her periods, and later in Sodom God decides to murder a town for their lack of charity. I guess you could reach and say that God hates sinners and homosexuals are committing a sin, but that's pretty silly at least in Christianity everyone is a…

(This is from my understanding of this, which is pretty limited) I think this is an important point about Christianity and homosexuality. While the bible states homosexuality is a sin, it says a lot of things are sins. But it doesn't have some scale of REALLY BAD sins vs tiny sins. Sins are sins when it comes to Christianity. And the only way to salvation is through Jesus. A church that would reject members based on…

The Catholic Church actually only considers homosexual sexual acts a sin. The root of this is a particular belief in natural order and law, ie. all sexual acts that aren't aimed at procreation are considered sins (somewhat different levels of gravity depending on the situation - but this is where the "every sperm is sacred" joke comes from)

Being gay in itself is not a sin.

Re: Tim Cook Speaks Up

#415

Post by scottjad » Thu, Oct 30, 2014, 4:32 PM UTC

socialist_coder wrote: post #126

praptak wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me it came across as purely figurative. IMHO the usual phrases like "thank God it's not raining" are pretty much detached from the religious context. Is it different in US?

"Thank God it's not raining" is completely different from saying "... the greatest gifts God has given me." The first is just a frivolous small talk type comment. Non-religious people would say this. It's part of the common US vocabulary. The second is much more serious, and the speaker is actually thanking God for how he is. A non-religious person would never say it. Religious people do this type of thing all the ti…

> The amount of American pro-athletes who are religious is astounding. Many athletes will seriously thank God after doing something well in a sporting event....I live in Germany now and I've counted a total of TWO cars in 2 years that had any kind of Religious sticker.

FWIW you will see plenty of religious displays in European soccer. Look at the biggest sporting event in Europe this past week: El Clasico between Real Madrid and Barcelona. Watch when Neymar scores a goal and kneels down on the ground and points up at the sky and says thank you (or something like that). Unfortunately Messi didn't score, but he would have done something similar though less dramatic. Granted these guys aren't Europeans, but they're not North Americans either. And other European footballers do similar things.

Re: Tim Cook Speaks Up

#416

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Oct 30, 2014, 4:34 PM UTC

mklim wrote: post #308

ForrestN wrote: post #235

I am incredibly grateful to Cook for this, not least because of how it will affect young gay people. When I was a child, I felt generally good about myself. I was reasonably smart, well-spoken, curious, and so on, and I wanted to do something important with my life. Some nagging part of me suspected I was gay from very early on, but I resisted it intensely. I wasn't really afraid of being mistreated, although I proba…

Agreed. I was in a similar boat. My first exposure to the term "lesbian" was a flash cartoon that had a throwaway gag about a butch woman who lived in the sewer and ate children—I remember going home and crying because I strongly suspected that that's what I was, once the other kids explained what the term meant, and I didn't want to end up having to move underground and away from all my friends once I grew up. (This…

[deleted]

Re: Tim Cook Speaks Up

#417

Post by gknoy » Thu, Oct 30, 2014, 4:34 PM UTC

blktiger wrote: post #355

coke12 wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have a hard time thinking of anyone as Christian if they ignore the basic tenants of what the Bible says. You can be an adulterer and a Christian. You can commit any sin imaginable and still consider yourself a Christian. Homosexuality is no different.

There is a difference though between commiting a sin then admitting you were wrong and actively promoting a lifestyle that espouses sin. I'd have the same problem with an adulterer who didn't think that their adultery was wrong. In one case, someone messed up - in the other someone is actually ignoring the bible entirely.

I wouldn't say they were ignoring it entirely. Rather, perhaps they were choosing to ignore the parts that they consider outdated and ludicrous (such as the calls to marry in-laws, or stone people for things), and instead consider their "Christian"-ness to be derived from a more forgiving perspective of a certain rabbi who advised people to love their neighbor.

Re: Tim Cook Speaks Up

#418

Post by notjackma » Thu, Oct 30, 2014, 4:35 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #398

notjackma wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

52% of Californians voted in favor of Prop 8 (to ban same-sex marriage) so you could argue Brendan Eich holds a rather popular opinion.

> 52% of Californians voted in favor of Prop 8 (to ban same-sex marriage) No, they didn't. 52% of those who voted on Prop 8 (about 79% of the ~17M eligible and registered to vote, which were themselves only about 45% of Californians) voted for Prop 8 -- so about 19% of Californians voted for it. > so you could argue Brendan Eich holds a rather popular opinion. Well, no, you couldn't make a good argument that he holds…

Semantics. The fact is, of registered voters in California, more people voted against same-sex marriage than for it. Of course, that was 6 years ago... so why should Brendan Eich be ostracised in 2014 for donating money to a campaign which was quite popular back then?

At what point did Mozilla's mission for a free and open internet turn into one about social justice and identity politics?

Re: Tim Cook Speaks Up

#419

Post by fleitz » Thu, Oct 30, 2014, 4:36 PM UTC

blktiger wrote: post #298

dodyg wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tim Cook is a Christian. This is a message to the Church.

I have a hard time thinking of anyone as Christian if they ignore the basic tenants of what the Bible says. Homosexuality is very clearly spelled out as wrong. So are plenty of other things of course and the Bible doesn't specify homosexual behavior as any more or less wrong than any other sinful act. Christians shouldn't be treating homosexuals any different than anyone else, but that includes letting people know th…

It's funny that there's no moral imperative for christians to stone people who have touched women on their periods, yet there is some sort of moral imperative to let gay people know they are sinning.

Also, how does Red Lobster do so well in the south, let alone pork products...

Re: Tim Cook Speaks Up

#420

Post by cheepin » Thu, Oct 30, 2014, 4:38 PM UTC

lentil_soup wrote: post #151

vegardx wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There seems to have been a cultural shift in the United States as of lately. Just a few years back most companies was afraid of "choosing" side, and kept things pretty neutral. But look at recent Disney movies and Coca-Cola commercials. They all give the impression that from a marketing perspective it's better to take a stand.

I don't have any data to back it up, but I guess it's just companies following the trend on public opinion? They didn't before because the majority was against it, they do now because the majority is for it. Not sure if that means taking a stand, though.

It's because the 'for' crowd is enthusiastic, so advertisers want to channel a little of their enthusiasm to promote a product. The 'against' crowd is largely apathetic and doesn't associate with 'anti' particularly strongly compared to the 'pro' crowd.

On the flip side, anything perceived as anti-gay in business blows up with negative press and talks of boycotts. With Apple's demographic, this will definitely be considered a plus.