Suggestion for modification: Call it OpenRNG instead of OneRNG. In every second sentence i read the word open. Its obviously a main purpose.
it's a sad pun, we're from NZ ....
Still took me a minute - OneRNG -> "One Ring" LOTR reference
OneRNG – Open Hardware Random Number Generator
51–60 of 89 posts
Re: OneRNG – Open Hardware Random Number Generator
#52How does it compare to the NeuG? Which entropy source is better? http://www.gniibe.org/memo/development/gnuk/rng/neug.html
Note: I've only glanced at NeuG, so this is an over-simplified repy. Neug relies on a few different A/D inputs as a noise source. The resolution of the A/Ds is only 12 bits, meaning it is not capable of reliably measuring thermal noise in the system. In any case, it does not seem to be trying to measure voltage on a high impedance node. Therefore the data passed will be power supply noise and other sources of external influence. These potentially can be influenced by an attacker, maybe even remotely. I do like this architecture for a TRNG, and I like that it is open, but I do not believe the creator of NeuG has put nearly the TRNG know-how into this design as OneRNG. Personally, I'm looking forward to signing up on the Kickstarter for OneRNG when it happens.
Re: OneRNG – Open Hardware Random Number Generator
#53Or you could just use a shitty cheap webcam and take the lower bits of each pixel (or one pixel of each 8x8 block if the compression is bad).
The amount of randomness per second webcams generate is pretty insane, it's more than enough to feed the seed of a crypto PRNG function like Fortuna.
Re: OneRNG – Open Hardware Random Number Generator
#54If the avalanche diode is the main/primary source of entropy why do we need the CC2531? The super paranoid part of me is worried about the 802.15.4 radio being used as a vector to taint the RNG. Shouldn't an HW RNG NOT have any secondary communication method built in? I am guessing you guys added that because that's the platform you're working with for your IOT project, but it just seems a little overkill to me. The…
I think that's a fair point, I agonized over it for quite a while - the cc2531 was the USB device/ and stack I was building with at the time. This is the main reason why by default the device disables the RF source, you have to go out of your way to enable it by editing an /etc .conf file - however it actually does make a slightly better random stream
Is it possible for this device to transmit over radio, or only receive? I certainly prefer only being able to receive, as transmitting seems like an attack vector.
With the assumption that it only receives, I would strongly prefer that it be left on by default. Adding a second source to the CRC mixing can only improve entropy, even if the source is controlled by an attacker. Since the noise from the zener has no simple proof of it's entropy output rate, and it can vary over time, and because zener noise TRNGs have been known to be power-supply noise sensitive (not that your's is), having that second source gives me much more confidence in the device.
Re: OneRNG – Open Hardware Random Number Generator
#55A question for the designers (Paul?) about verifiability. In the software world you can effectively choose from 2 levels of review. You can (1) review the source code of a project and convince yourself it's fine. Or (2) you can assume/hope that experts have done that, download the software, and just verify you have an identical copy of what everyone else is reviewing. (Ideally using signatures of the authors and reviewers.)
Almost everyone who cares does step 2, assuming they do anything at all. Very few people are qualified or bother to review source code, but everyone who performs step 2 can feel pretty safe, as long as a release is big enough that it's getting reviewed by experts.
So, what's the hardware equivalent? If I'm not capable of reviewing the schema of this hardware, but someone I trust says "this is great", how do I at least know the one I bought is identical to the one she/he bought (or built) and reviewed? How do I verify the components? This seems like a difficult problem.
Re: OneRNG – Open Hardware Random Number Generator
#56A question for the designers (Paul?) about verifiability. In the software world you can effectively choose from 2 levels of review. You can (1) review the source code of a project and convince yourself it's fine. Or (2) you can assume/hope that experts have done that, download the software, and just verify you have an identical copy of what everyone else is reviewing. (Ideally using signatures of the authors and revi…
You run your "verified" software on hardware, right? How do you know the hardware is verified?
Re: OneRNG – Open Hardware Random Number Generator
#57A question for the designers (Paul?) about verifiability. In the software world you can effectively choose from 2 levels of review. You can (1) review the source code of a project and convince yourself it's fine. Or (2) you can assume/hope that experts have done that, download the software, and just verify you have an identical copy of what everyone else is reviewing. (Ideally using signatures of the authors and revi…
I think the idea is that the components are simple enough in the case that it can be reviewed visually by inspecting the circuit board and comparing it to a signed/verified reference.
The last bit that is missing then is the chip's firmware, but apparently it is possible to get a dump of the firmware, so you can at least ensure it is what you expect.
It will be a pretty interesting problem for cases. How can you both make a case that is practical and lets you inspect components? Maybe encasing the circuit board in transparent resin would work, but then you can't reprogram it anymore (which might be a feature).
EDIT: Oh, that username rang a bell. Hi Chris :) Keybase.io FTW!
Re: OneRNG – Open Hardware Random Number Generator
#58This seems sound. However, I'm in doubt about some of their points: > You can ask it to dump the current firmware to you It can dump the firmware but it can still execute something else than this (or in addition to) this firmware, can't it? > You can see all the components on the board The fact that I can see these tiny thingies doesn't do much good either? Can I, seeing them, tell what they do? No. Building one of t…
The point is - you can verify it yourself . Without trusting anybody else. Dumping the firmware means you can ensure it's not been modified (presumably from when you uploaded it to the device yourself). Being able to inspect components means you can ensure it's still exactly as you built it. And if you haven't, you can visually check that it does what it says it does. If you're not technically competent to make this…
None of the images show the other side of the board, but unless every trace is visible, it will be difficult to non-destructively inspect. If its only a 2 layer board then this just means scratching off the white silkscreen, which wouldn't be too bad. If its more than 2 layers, you would have to have access to an X-ray machine.
Re: OneRNG – Open Hardware Random Number Generator
#59Earlier quoted context omitted.
well you have to consider me (the designer, the guy putting the original code in the device that you want to verify and make sure that it's not someone else's code) as trustworthy. After all I'm the one who's trying to protect the integrity of my product, I'm not going to give you a compressible bitstream if I can possible help it - and I'm going to publish the bitstream I am using so you can check
I think the parents point is that you generated the random-bitstream somehow, starting from a specific seed. If you know the seed, you could regenerates the random bitstream with a lot less bytes (=secretly compressible). So now you have some extra room left on the ROM to embed your malicious firmware and still be able to dump the original full 256k. If you start with a known image/photo (not yours, some public domai…
Glad you asked - we have a book [1][2] for this, at least up to 405.5 KiB.
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Million_Random_Digits_with_10...
[2] http://www.amazon.com/Million-Random-Digits-Normal-Deviates/...
Re: OneRNG – Open Hardware Random Number Generator
#60This seems sound. However, I'm in doubt about some of their points: > You can ask it to dump the current firmware to you It can dump the firmware but it can still execute something else than this (or in addition to) this firmware, can't it? > You can see all the components on the board The fact that I can see these tiny thingies doesn't do much good either? Can I, seeing them, tell what they do? No. Building one of t…
The point is - you can verify it yourself . Without trusting anybody else. Dumping the firmware means you can ensure it's not been modified (presumably from when you uploaded it to the device yourself). Being able to inspect components means you can ensure it's still exactly as you built it. And if you haven't, you can visually check that it does what it says it does. If you're not technically competent to make this…
How do we verify the internal microcode and switch fabric of the TI CC2531?
IMO it seems like simply trusting the large block diagram that says "USB PHY" is a very weak point in the design.