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China Buys 80 Very High Speed Trains (236 mph) for $4 Billion

bombardier.com

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Re: China Buys 80 Very High Speed Trains (236 mph) for $4 Billion

#21

Post by jacquesm »

bliving wrote: post #6
_ck_ wrote: post #3

Not trying to be funny, but I am kind of surprised they didn't just buy a few and make copies of them.

Construction will happen in China (Qingdao), with project management and components(?) split between China and Europe offices. And not that funny; I know of heavy manufacturing companies that multiply their selling prices by 10 for equipment that is destined for China just for that reason.

Thereby giving the Chinese a great incentive to copy them, after all they're being ripped off.

That's pretty much analogous to people copying music because they've been ripped off for so long.

Re: China Buys 80 Very High Speed Trains (236 mph) for $4 Billion

#22

Post by ardit33 »

patio11 wrote: post #7
ujjwalg wrote: post #2

This is great for China. Hopefully, US will be working in implementing this soon too.

I hope not. The shinkansen is lovely, don't get me wrong (+), but they estimate $40+ billion (which is likely about 40% of what it would actually cost given the persistent cost overruns in infrastructure projects) just to connect Sacramento through San Diego. The only thing that would come close to making trains economical in the US is a massive firebombing campaign of every city you hope they're going to run through…

and the alternative is? to build more highways?

Is it any cheaper to raze down more buildings, to open more lanes. 101, and 280 in SF are already 5 lanes and full of traffic (101 is becoming like a parking lot, even in recession).

The Bay Bridge is already 5 lanes each way, and always chocked. It is pretty clear that the highway system is not scaling well. Spending billions of dollars for more lanes, just wont work.

And everytime me and you ride the highway, are are not paying for the full cost of it. Or gas taxes are just a mere fraction of the real cost.

Just saying. And the projection of the SF to LA ticket cost, are about $55-60.

Please no more FUD.

Re: China Buys 80 Very High Speed Trains (236 mph) for $4 Billion

#23

Post by ujjwalg »

patio11 wrote: post #7
ujjwalg wrote: post #2

This is great for China. Hopefully, US will be working in implementing this soon too.

I hope not. The shinkansen is lovely, don't get me wrong (+), but they estimate $40+ billion (which is likely about 40% of what it would actually cost given the persistent cost overruns in infrastructure projects) just to connect Sacramento through San Diego. The only thing that would come close to making trains economical in the US is a massive firebombing campaign of every city you hope they're going to run through…

I understand what you are trying to say, and not being an expert or possessing enough knowledge about it, all I can say is it works in Europe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:High_Speed_Railroad_Map_Eu...

I am also very biased towards a well developed rail system, because I hate flying/driving. Being from India, I have traveled in train system, a lot, even though its not a high speed rail system. I loved it. I have been to europe a lot and am a fan of it. I know its a huge investment, and probably wont be profitable any time soon, but IMO, it will benefit in a very long term.

Re: China Buys 80 Very High Speed Trains (236 mph) for $4 Billion

#24

Post by jrockway »

patio11 wrote: post #7
ujjwalg wrote: post #2

This is great for China. Hopefully, US will be working in implementing this soon too.

I hope not. The shinkansen is lovely, don't get me wrong (+), but they estimate $40+ billion (which is likely about 40% of what it would actually cost given the persistent cost overruns in infrastructure projects) just to connect Sacramento through San Diego. The only thing that would come close to making trains economical in the US is a massive firebombing campaign of every city you hope they're going to run through…

I doubt the use case in the US is to link every major city. The air network does this far more efficiently. Places in the US are way too far apart.

High-speed trains would do well where conventional trains are too slow and regional jets are too expensive. (Example, Chicago-Madison).

I also see high-speed trains as being useful for city/airport links. Oslo has a high speed train between its central station and the airport, which effectively abstracts away the fact that the airport is in the Middle Of Fucking Nowhere. (Tokyo suffers from this problem, as well. While flying from HKG to NRT recently, the thought crossed my mind that landing in KIX and taking the train to downtown Tokyo might actually be faster...)

Even in cities like Chicago where the airport is close to downtown, conventional trains are too slow. (It takes me at least 45 minutes to get from Clark/Lake to O'Hare. A high-speed train could do that in 6 minutes! I would gladly pay a premium for this convenience.)

Finally, cost is not an issue as infrastructure is never profitable. The interstate system is not making money, the airlines are not making money, and conventional trains are not making money. Society needs the infrastructure regardless, which is why we pay taxes.

Re: China Buys 80 Very High Speed Trains (236 mph) for $4 Billion

#25

Post by yuan »

patio11 wrote: post #7
ujjwalg wrote: post #2

This is great for China. Hopefully, US will be working in implementing this soon too.

I hope not. The shinkansen is lovely, don't get me wrong (+), but they estimate $40+ billion (which is likely about 40% of what it would actually cost given the persistent cost overruns in infrastructure projects) just to connect Sacramento through San Diego. The only thing that would come close to making trains economical in the US is a massive firebombing campaign of every city you hope they're going to run through…

> See, in general, http://green.venturebeat.com/2008/04/11/why-the-california-h....

Too much hot air. How about some real numbers from historical data?

From "Sustainable Energy - without the hot air" by David McKay, p.121. http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/mackay/Books.html

Energy consumption

(kWh per 100 p-km)

------------------

Car 68

Bus 19

Rail 6

Air 51

Sea 57

------------------

Table 20.8. Overall transport efficiencies of transport modes in Japan (1999).

Re: China Buys 80 Very High Speed Trains (236 mph) for $4 Billion

#26

Post by AndrewJ »

American here, I think it'd be amazing if we'd increase our infrastructure by taking oh, say, two billion and helping to cost down someone building these in the US.

I admit I haven't researched this more, but someone just mentioned that there's talks about a cross country high speed rail being built; it would go through MI and that's how I came into contact with the topic. I'd love to see something like that happen...stop building 2/10 bombs and build a few trains/bridges :)

Re: China Buys 80 Very High Speed Trains (236 mph) for $4 Billion

#27

Post by pg »

LostInTheWoods wrote: post #9
holdenc wrote: post #5

Totalitarianism has its efficiencies.

Totalitarianism is very efficient until the people realize material wealth without political freedom is hollow.

It may actually break down well before that. There is probably something akin to the Laffer curve for the power of the central government. I.e. at a certain point, making the government more powerful will make the country poorer.

Re: China Buys 80 Very High Speed Trains (236 mph) for $4 Billion

#28

Post by garnet7 »

Love riding the train. Such efficient transportation. So much more relaxing than driving the car. Personally though, I like the old technology. Steel wheels on steel rails still goes plenty fast, feels smooth, is cheap, and is so terribly simple that it's hard (but of course not impossible) for things to go wrong.

Re: China Buys 80 Very High Speed Trains (236 mph) for $4 Billion

#29

Post by bliving »

jacquesm wrote: post #21
bliving wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Construction will happen in China (Qingdao), with project management and components(?) split between China and Europe offices. And not that funny; I know of heavy manufacturing companies that multiply their selling prices by 10 for equipment that is destined for China just for that reason.

Thereby giving the Chinese a great incentive to copy them, after all they're being ripped off. That's pretty much analogous to people copying music because they've been ripped off for so long.

Apologies for not being clearer. I believe that they agreed to the co-development

Re: China Buys 80 Very High Speed Trains (236 mph) for $4 Billion

#30

Post by bliving »

jacquesm wrote: post #21
bliving wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Construction will happen in China (Qingdao), with project management and components(?) split between China and Europe offices. And not that funny; I know of heavy manufacturing companies that multiply their selling prices by 10 for equipment that is destined for China just for that reason.

Thereby giving the Chinese a great incentive to copy them, after all they're being ripped off. That's pretty much analogous to people copying music because they've been ripped off for so long.

Apologies for not being clearer. I believe that they agreed to this co-development project because they are getting a good deal; as in, no being charged 10x because they're chinese.

They will have ample opportunity for the technology transfer required to do the next 800 on their own. And Bombardier will have their opportunity to compete on the next project. But the pessimist in me also believes that Bombardier will do their best to prevent that technology transfer! Sad, but it seems to be the path of least resistance in business these days.

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