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1984 v. Brave New World

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Re: 1984 v. Brave New World

#191

Post by abandonliberty »

gojomo wrote: post #147
aprdm wrote: post #6

Illustrates it well: http://postimg.org/image/ue0pdq56r/

That comic is based on Neil Postman's Amusing Ourselves To Death . It originally appeared at... http://www.recombinantrecords.net/docs/2009-05-Amusing-Ourse... ...but was apparently taken down due at the copyright holders' request. More on the book: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amusing_Ourselves_to_Death

I'm torn about this takedown. Until today I had no idea it was based on prior work.

If they left the comic up but clarified what it was inspired by it would definitely help the Postman estate.

The conversion rate of "Do yourself a favour and read Neil Postman's words in full. Purchase a copy of Amusing Ourselves to Death new/used (aff)" must be a rounding error on 0.

Re: 1984 v. Brave New World

#192

Post by claren »

Tiksi wrote: post #172
vegedor wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> objectively So, what's the entity without agency (agenda?) that would be objective . There is no objectivity. I don't know how well documented it is, but I doubt I really want to know. If it is well known, why isn't it prevented regularly or is it? > Why is it about mental illness that causes otherwise smart, empathetic, and scientifically literate people to start clutching their pearls? It's treating the symptom,…

>It's treating the symptom, not the problem. Just a hunch. So then why isn't taking an ibuprofen for a headache, or cold medicine to help with cold symptoms the same? Plenty of medicine treats the just symptoms, and there don't seem to be people proclaiming the downfall of society because of cold medicine. It helps alleviate the symptoms and allows the sufferer to work towards curing the cause. I would imagine that t…

If you have headaches everyday, ibuprofen is not gotta cut it, you should have a doctor look for a tumor. Likewise, if the cerebral region responsible for releasing Dopamin and Serotonin, or whatever else is not functioning as intended in depressive people, would shrink, like an untrained muscle, supplementing with medication only helps so far, when it doesn't stop the shrinkage. I say shrinkige, because I don't know a proper explanation, mind you. Now, if there is nothing else to doctor about, it's well better than nothing, but it isn't the end of the story. Yes, lack of exercise can lead to a weak body, which feels uncomfortable, sports are a great way to exercise thought as well.

> think that they deserve it due to some unknown choice they made and should have to deal with the consequences

That's the conservative approach. If the depression comes from social interactions, there has to be another side of the coin, this is it.

> Honestly, even if it was "cheating" to take a pill

In the context above, it's a masquerade and can make the interaction even more difficult, because besides the obvious symptoms, there are probably others as well.

Also, a certain fear of medication based on ignorance is there, I won't deny that I don't know.

Re: 1984 v. Brave New World

#194

Post by paypaul »

I have always liked this excerpt from the video game Deus Ex. It to me foreshadows where the security state seems to be heading --- When one maniac can wipe out a city of twenty million with a microbe developed in his basement, a new approach to law enforcement becomes necessary. Every citizen in the world must be placed under surveillance. That means sky-cams at every intersection, computer-mediated analysis of every phone call, e-mail, and snail-mail, and a purely electronic economy in which every transaction is recorded and data-mined for suspicious activity. We are close to achieving this goal. Some would say that human liberty has been compromised, but the reality is just the opposite. As surveillance expands, people become free from danger, free to walk alone at night, free to work in a safe place, and free to buy any legal product or service without the threat of fraud. One day every man and woman will quietly earn credits, purchase items for quiet homes on quiet streets, have cook-outs with neighbors and strangers alike, and sleep with doors and windows wide open. If that isn't the tranquil dream of every free civilization throughout history, what is? -- Anna Navarre, Agent, UNATCO

Re: 1984 v. Brave New World

#195

Post by abandonliberty »

epidemian wrote: post #152
jonnathanson wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If not for the eugenics, genetics and soma, it sounds like a nice place to live! Freer sex, freer entertainment, more automation, more leisure... It's radical, certainly, but not in a bad way" Well, it's all fun and games if you happen to win the genetic dice roll and end up as an Alpha. I imagine it's considerably less fun if you're a Gamma. More to the point, the world in Brave New World isn't dystopian on account…

As the grand parent, i also see the society of Brave New World as much less dystopian than usually portrayed. > Well, it's all fun and games if you happen to win the genetic dice roll and end up as an Alpha. I imagine it's considerably less fun if you're a Gamma. Yes, from the external point of view of a book reader, i would prefer to "win the genetic dice roll". But if i were decanted as a Gamma, i wouldn't mind, i…

Human obsolescence wasn't on Huxley's mind.

Instead of Deltas, Gammas, and Epsilons doing awful labour, they will do none.

While CGP Grey has a very consumer-oriented view, it's quite compelling. www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Pq-S557XQU

Re: 1984 v. Brave New World

#196

Post by gojomo »

abandonliberty wrote: post #191
gojomo wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That comic is based on Neil Postman's Amusing Ourselves To Death . It originally appeared at... http://www.recombinantrecords.net/docs/2009-05-Amusing-Ourse... ...but was apparently taken down due at the copyright holders' request. More on the book: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amusing_Ourselves_to_Death

I'm torn about this takedown. Until today I had no idea it was based on prior work. If they left the comic up but clarified what it was inspired by it would definitely help the Postman estate. The conversion rate of "Do yourself a favour and read Neil Postman's words in full. Purchase a copy of Amusing Ourselves to Death new/used (aff)" must be a rounding error on 0.

Definitely agree that the comic, staying at one canonical location, could have served as a boon to the sales of the book and awareness of its themes.

(I'm guessing that the subtlety of the comic's original Postman mention – at the very bottom – compared to the top line "AMUSING OURSELVES TO DEATH by Stuart McMillen" may have started the attribution discussion off on the wrong foot.)

Re: 1984 v. Brave New World

#197

Post by lmm »

Loughla wrote: post #184
lmm wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Visceral reaction is not an argument. If you ask me to imagine undergoing surgery I'll think "eew". But I still think a world in which people can undergo surgery is better than one in which it doesn't exist.

Is your argument that a world in which people have no decision making power about their future is a good world to live in?

No, my argument is that your argument is bad.

Re: 1984 v. Brave New World

#199

Post by barrkel »

webXL wrote: post #188
barrkel wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We already have a caste system, in the form of unearned wealth, and that divide is increasing rapidly. I think that media, public discourse, entertainment and most especially industrial schooling are already tuned to condition people to accept servility to capital. There's a whole economic religion set up to perpetuate the superiority of the top 1% of the capitalist caste. There's more to it, but it's not a conspirac…

I think you mean undeserved wealth , via inheritance, rent-seeking and downright theft. The wealth was created and actually earned by someone. The sheer number of sports/movie stars, well-off politicians and entrepreneurs in the US with humble beginnings don't give weight to your claim. Sure, there might be a top "caste" that controls who can belong to that "caste", and very much tries to use the law to protect their…

I'm not worried about "undeserved" wealth or lack of mobility, I'm worried about increasing inequality.

It doesn't matter if there's a different 1% every year, if 1% owns 90+% of the wealth - and that's where trends are headed.

I think "deserved" wealth often isn't; a lot of it is luck of birth and opportunity, and more of it is being in a position of leverage to earn more by being high up in a hierarchy. But even if it is fully "deserved", it is still problematic.

What does "deserved" even mean in this context, anyway? It is not enough for wealth to be gotten by moral means, "deserved" must reflect a judgement by society as a whole, that everyone is in aggregate and justly better off by rewarding any particular person their particular share of everyone's future production (viewing wealth as a claim on future production).

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