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Uselessd

uselessd.darknedgy.net

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Re: Uselessd

#41

Post by acdha »

tveita wrote: post #30
XorNot wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The binary logs are append only. The bug tracker entry says that they got "some corrupted logs" but not how. People get corrupted or truncated text logs all the time, they just ignore it because "oh the log ends midway through a line? eh". The ridiculous "oh my god my logs will be always ruined thing" is a beat up by those who need to assassinate something about systemd, because it's always been devoid of any technic…

A truncated text log can still be informative, and I've never had a corrupted text log hang or crash my text editor.

That's because your text editor has had thousands of hours of work going into catching all of the edge cases.

Things which have caused editors to hang or crash: 1. Binary data outside of the US-ASCII visible range 2. Malformed or creative Unicode combinations 3. Very long lines 4. Very many lines 5. Inconsistent line termination 6. Lines with patterns which trigger syntax highlighting, URL underlining, etc. 7. Embedded terminal escape sequences

It's not unreasonable to imagine that the journald developers might spend the same amount of time on safeguards, something which is easier with a well-defined binary format.

Re: Uselessd

#42

Post by currysausage »

fafner wrote: post #40
currysausage wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might be unprofessional in this context, but it did make me smile. The GNU project's political dedication is vital to the OSS world, but quality of code, documentation and usability often do feel like an afterthought. The minimalism of the BSDs, for example, always is a refreshing contrast. (Don't get me wrong, I don't want to flame, I use GNU tools on a daily basis. Just when you know what they mean, the rather u…

GNU tools are rather well documented and well usable. I really don't understand the claims you are making.

It starts with this:

  The full documentation for XY is maintained as a Texinfo  manual. If
  the info and XY programs are properly installed at your site, the command
  
          info coreutils 'XY invocation'
  
  should give you access to the complete manual.
No, I don't want to spend days learning how to use yet another obscure hypertext browser. That's not the Unix way anyway. GNU's Not Unix, and that's fine - but annoying at times.

Re: Uselessd

#43

Post by uselessdguy »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #39

Because systemd was entirely too consistent across environments, so it needed some inconsistency introduced. The documentation reminds me a lot of Emacs's "ANTINEWS", listing all the functionality you lose by downgrading to the previous version of Emacs. Except in this case, it's actually a "NEWS" file, showing all the functionality you lose by downgrading from systemd to uselessd. > Certain superfluous unit types re…

ANTINEWS is the best kind of NEWS. And you don't just lose things, come on. Our recent support for running a system instance of systemd/uselessd without taking over init (as early and rudimentary as it still may be) is a good thing. Cross-libc is another. A couple of things from main.c were refactored into independent tools.

This is still a giant WIP and it's quite experimental. We make this perfectly clear in the wiki that it's not ready for system integration or daily use, and there's still a long way to go (including some more radical ideas) before we ever think of making a stable release.

uselessd is about sticking to processes. Did we not make that clear? If you want a dedicated supervisor, you can use something explicitly designed for such a purpose, like monit or supervisord, instead of using systemd's mixed functionality. Device activation can still be accomplished through (e)udev. We're device node manager-agnostic. We made this clear.

No, you're not screwed. I think you completely ignored the fact that we intend on being portable. This is still early, again, but nonetheless we do compile on FreeBSD and Debian GNU/Hurd and some of the tools (like systemd-delta) actually run properly.

To be honest, we haven't tested the systemd-fsck unit. We mostly removed the binary due to being something that used libudev and looked like it belonged to a shell script more than anything. You can still force fscks through other means (tune2fs for ext2/3/4, etc.) We'll be sorting this out.

It sounds like this project offends your personal ideological sensibilities, as you totally misunderstand its purpose and fail to realize it's a WIP and unstable.

By the way, I liked the jab about choice. I wish we all voted for the same political party, too.

Re: Uselessd

#44

Post by brazzy »

uselessdguy wrote: post #33
joelberman wrote: post #26

I do not want to spend the time to learn new things unless they are directly related to my work. So systemd was a PITA for me, but now I am fine with it (BTW, I have used UNIX since the late 60's so have seen a lot). This project looks great, but I do not have the energy to care, I will just deal with whatever comes with my distro. By the way, pick a better name. I suspect many OSS and home grown projects fail for th…

The name is perfect and I do not see myself changing it. The fact that so many people misunderstand makes it better. The Linux Action Show thought we were calling systemd "useless" and went on a hilarious rant, there's people on LinuxQuestions.org who really insist that it's pronounced "use less dee" (I call it "uselessdee", as in it's of no use, personally).

So basically you're doing all this for the lulz of confusing and pissing off people and don't really want anyone to actually use the software?

Re: Uselessd

#45

Post by Wilya »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #39

Because systemd was entirely too consistent across environments, so it needed some inconsistency introduced. The documentation reminds me a lot of Emacs's "ANTINEWS", listing all the functionality you lose by downgrading to the previous version of Emacs. Except in this case, it's actually a "NEWS" file, showing all the functionality you lose by downgrading from systemd to uselessd. > Certain superfluous unit types re…

> So anyone who actually wants to use such security systems is screwed, then. Good thing Linux isn't about choice.

You're not screwed. If you need SMACK, IMA, or SELinux, you still have systemd. That's choice.

Re: Uselessd

#46

Post by shawabawa3 »

agumonkey wrote: post #24
dantillberg wrote: post #11

Grammar nit: I believe that "complementary kitchen sink" would mean that the kitchen sink goes really well with it, while "complimentary kitchen sink" would mean that the kitchen sink is included at no additional charge.

I believe it's the opposite. Compliment : positive quality. Complement : making a whole. ps: not native english speaker.

While your definitions are technically correct - GP is right.

Complimentary means "free", complementary means "goes well with"

Re: Uselessd

#47

Post by anon4 »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #39

Because systemd was entirely too consistent across environments, so it needed some inconsistency introduced. The documentation reminds me a lot of Emacs's "ANTINEWS", listing all the functionality you lose by downgrading to the previous version of Emacs. Except in this case, it's actually a "NEWS" file, showing all the functionality you lose by downgrading from systemd to uselessd. > Certain superfluous unit types re…

> So under uselessd a service or socket file cannot depend on the presence of certain mounts, for instance (RequiresMountsFor=).

Of course it can - you just write a script that checks for the mount being there and if not attempts to mount it, with a timeout, then put it in as a dependency.

Re: Uselessd

#48

Post by rootbear »

joelberman wrote: post #26

I do not want to spend the time to learn new things unless they are directly related to my work. So systemd was a PITA for me, but now I am fine with it (BTW, I have used UNIX since the late 60's so have seen a lot). This project looks great, but I do not have the energy to care, I will just deal with whatever comes with my distro. By the way, pick a better name. I suspect many OSS and home grown projects fail for th…

With apologies to uselessdguy, I have to agree that the name is not an asset. I have NO problem with clever names, but sometimes they are a bit too much. For example, I always though that Lesstif (a clone of Motif) was a silly, off-putting, name. As to the substance of it, I'm not thrilled with systemd and generally agree with the argument that it's taking on too much. So I wish the uselessd project well, if for no other reason than it may encourage systemd to address some of it's shortcomings.

Re: Uselessd

#49

Post by uselessdguy »

brazzy wrote: post #44
uselessdguy wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The name is perfect and I do not see myself changing it. The fact that so many people misunderstand makes it better. The Linux Action Show thought we were calling systemd "useless" and went on a hilarious rant, there's people on LinuxQuestions.org who really insist that it's pronounced "use less dee" (I call it "uselessdee", as in it's of no use, personally).

So basically you're doing all this for the lulz of confusing and pissing off people and don't really want anyone to actually use the software?

Humorous names aren't exactly new to free software.

Re: Uselessd

#50

Post by cwyers »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #39

Because systemd was entirely too consistent across environments, so it needed some inconsistency introduced. The documentation reminds me a lot of Emacs's "ANTINEWS", listing all the functionality you lose by downgrading to the previous version of Emacs. Except in this case, it's actually a "NEWS" file, showing all the functionality you lose by downgrading from systemd to uselessd. > Certain superfluous unit types re…

"So under uselessd a service or socket file cannot depend on the presence of certain mounts, for instance (RequiresMountsFor=). Nor can a service run maintenance tasks periodically with supervision on the maintenance task, and with all the privilege-dropping, isolation, and security features easily accomplished with a systemd service. (And even if a cron implementation implemented such features, they'd work gratuitously differently from systemd services.) Nor can the availability of a device trigger the reliable, monitored launch of a service with all those same systemd features."

Well it isn't called usefuld.

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