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1984 v. Brave New World

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181–190 of 204 posts

Re: 1984 v. Brave New World

#181
post #98

I actually agree with some of the other commenters in this thread: Huxley's dystopia is, well, far less dystopian than Orwell's. Or, in a more nuanced look, Huxley's book suffers an unfortunate dichotomy: the things that are bad are not realistic and the things that are realistic are not bad. The legitimately dystopian part of Brave New World are often technical in nature—effectively mind control through drugs and a…

>"things that are realistic are not bad"

Are they not realistic to us because we already exist in a kind of Huxleyan dystopia and therefore we simply perceive them as not bad?

Re: 1984 v. Brave New World

#182
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Boy oh boy. Well, the thing is it is a society that is completely in thrall to a system of basic pleasure orchestrated with the questionable justification that a life without real pleasure or pain is a better one. The people are oblivious to all art and real achievement, they have no desires and no ambitions, they create nothing and have no desire to, they feel no real emotions and all sex is mechanical, and they hap…

How is now not what you describe? Maybe there are no clear puppet-masters driving it, but vast swaths of people in the US live like this and fervently support it right now.

Yes, we have arrived. I have become more and more interested in Huxley over the last few years as I have become more and more aware that we have become something like what he described. The only thing left is for the powers that be to take advantage of our state of passivity and transition us to 1984

Re: 1984 v. Brave New World

#183
post #114
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Really, Brave New World minus the implausible bits and with a larger dash of individual freedom thrown in is pretty much as far from dystopian as it can get. Radical, certainly, and jarring—very different from our current social order—but fundamentally good. And that's why Brave New World is far more frightening: an educated, intelligent person looks at it now and thinks, 'that's not so bad!'

What's even more frightening is we're getting both.

No, we got Snow Crash instead.

Re: 1984 v. Brave New World

#184
post #178
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most cattle are relatively happy, have their medicine, their wild versions, conditioning of their young and forced sex (orgy-porgies without the orgy. . . ). Do the social structure and outlook of cattle appeal to you? Edit: because that's what the dystopia presented in A Brave New World is similar to.

Visceral reaction is not an argument. If you ask me to imagine undergoing surgery I'll think "eew". But I still think a world in which people can undergo surgery is better than one in which it doesn't exist.

Is your argument that a world in which people have no decision making power about their future is a good world to live in?

Re: 1984 v. Brave New World

#185
post #53
post #22

These are two giants in science fiction, in political philosophy and in pop culture. I'm a big fan of both. Great to read a discussion between them. First, there's the artistic stele of the books. 1984 has got this graphic novel, Noir feel to it, like Walking Dead or Sin City. Brave New World has this brightly colored surreal feel to it. It's hard to compare books that are different in this way. Overall, Orwell's wor…

A comic that juxtaposes then nicely: http://www.juxtapoz.com/current/huxley-vs-orwell-in-graphic-... I strongly feel that BNW is more realistic. Neither will play out in entirety, but we are certainly addicts of our opioid receptors.

It is beautiful that that link was blocked by the corporate firewall.

Re: 1984 v. Brave New World

#186
This comparison comes up fairly regularly in my circles, both online and offline, and my response is usually the same. Note that Huxley says, "Whether in actual fact the policy of the boot-on-the-face can go on indefinitely seems doubtful. My own belief is that the ruling oligarchy will find less arduous and wasteful ways of governing and of satisfying its lust for power, and these ways will resemble those which I described in Brave New World."

This is why my response is almost always that it is Brave New World for the people, and 1984 for anyone who dares resist.

And if you doubt the veracity of Huxley's claims about hypnosis, and other mental manipulations, just refer to MKULTRA and similar programs.

Another factor that most people don't like to hear about, because it leans too far on the side of "conspiracy theory", but the reason Huxley and Orwell both were so fearful of the coming future was because they were actually insiders of the power elite that has largely guided this progression. Orwell was trained at Eton college, and was a member of the Fabian society. Huxley was less involved, but from what I understand his younger days he did talk with Bertrand Russell, but as far as I can tell he didn't really interface with the elite, so I consider his point of view more independently insightful.

Now, at the risk of going off the deep end a bit, I would like to introduce HN readers to the origins of Orwell's Fabian society: The British East India Company. Overlap this with the secret "rings within rings" will of the Rothschild backed Cecil Rhodes (the goal of which was to establish and maintain anglosaxon dominance of the west), and the picture of the elite will make more sense. It was the Rhodes and Fabians behind the round table groups, including but not limited to, the Council on Foreign Relations, the Trilateral Commission, and Committee of 300.

Unfortunately, I have found very few places on the internet where modern talk of this subject isn't quickly overrun with the less fact-based "conspiracy theories". I said in about 2009 to one of my British friends that this is why we are going to see an increasing attack on the internet (TPP anyone?). As the last bastion of free speech, it won't be allowed to stand unified much longer.

I'll end it on that note for now.

Re: 1984 v. Brave New World

#187
post #174
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It just tasted wrong; like someone would have stood up and said, "No thank you" well before the point the book stepped into. The current state of North Korea indicates that this statement is wrong. When the odds are so overwhelmingly stacked against you, its hard to start a rebellion. Granted, things weren't looking very good for the U.S. when the revolutionary war began, but we had astronomically good odds when com…

The US revolution was not a revolution for independence of a oppressive regim. I mean common, in many ways the americans or rather english americans where better or just as well of as the english themselfs. I have been listening to lecture about the english empire and comparing americans with the lower class in North Korea is quite a strech.

Our revolution had much better chances because, in spite of the seemingly overwhelming odds, we still had quite a bit going for us, unlike the North Koreans.

I never suggested that we were battling an oppressive regime. Literally the entire point of my comment was to highlight the difference between us and North Korea; I didn't suggest the things you seem to think I did.

Re: 1984 v. Brave New World

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As the grand parent, i also see the society of Brave New World as much less dystopian than usually portrayed. > Well, it's all fun and games if you happen to win the genetic dice roll and end up as an Alpha. I imagine it's considerably less fun if you're a Gamma. Yes, from the external point of view of a book reader, i would prefer to "win the genetic dice roll". But if i were decanted as a Gamma, i wouldn't mind, i…

We already have a caste system, in the form of unearned wealth, and that divide is increasing rapidly. I think that media, public discourse, entertainment and most especially industrial schooling are already tuned to condition people to accept servility to capital. There's a whole economic religion set up to perpetuate the superiority of the top 1% of the capitalist caste. There's more to it, but it's not a conspirac…

I think you mean undeserved wealth, via inheritance, rent-seeking and downright theft. The wealth was created and actually earned by someone.

The sheer number of sports/movie stars, well-off politicians and entrepreneurs in the US with humble beginnings don't give weight to your claim. Sure, there might be a top "caste" that controls who can belong to that "caste", and very much tries to use the law to protect their collective wealth, but they don't have much control on the rest of the population's "caste mobility": http://www.verisi.com/resources/prosperity-upward-mobility.h...

Re: 1984 v. Brave New World

#190
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While true, it's a pretty uniquely American problem. Not many other countries even allow for prescription medicine to be advertised to consumers.

Mass obesity was also a pretty uniquely American problem, until it wasn't.

Well yes, but both are because America exports its problems.
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