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Calories in, calories out

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Re: Calories in, calories out

#61
I find this discussion very weird.

Of course calories in/calories out explains your weight loss/gain. I haven't seen a single study that shows anything except this.

But of course that isn't the whole story.

The big issue with using calorie restriction for weight loss is that it take significant self control for long periods of time (months).

People take that as a moral judgement of people who don't lose weight: they assume that it means they are mentally weak.

But the truth is that there are alternatives. The thing that most calorie in/out advocates miss is that it's calories over time that matter. If one can spread digestion of the same calories over a longer period of time the subject will generally feel less hungry.

This is where high-protein, anti-processed food, anti-sugar and insulin reaction people have a point: High protein, high fiber and unprocessed foods generally have a high satiety index[1][2]. This means a person eating them will feel less hungry for longer for the same amount of calories.

Naturally this links back to calories in: if someone who is trying to lose weight doesn't feel hungry they don't have to have so much self control.

To me the low satiety index of confectioneries and soda drinks explains why sugar is so dangerous: It's digested very quickly and contains lots of calories, which is the worst possible combination for weight control.

I don't understand why satiety isn't discussed more in weight control, since to me it is the key factor.

(This is all from the perspective of someone who lost nearly 20kg via calorie counting)

[1] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7498104

[2] http://www.ernaehrungsdenkwerkstatt.de/fileadmin/user_upload...

Re: Calories in, calories out

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My diet was partly portion control, but I also weighed food and used myfitnesspal. It did require greatly simplifying my diet. I would make five pounds of food at a time in a slower cooker, and have my meals all portioned out for the next few days. It was somewhat monotonous but that is actually a benefit. What made the diet stick and work, was that I knew with absolute scientific certainty that if I 1) counted calor…

Any favorite recipes?

Pulled chicken with salsa - 3 pounds of chicken, mixed breasts and thighs. 48oz salsa, three cans of 15oz beans. Mix together, put in slow cooker for 4 hours on high. Pull the chicken and mix in a cup of cheddar cheese. Simple, satiating, and very good.

Pulled pork Put a pork butt/shoulder in the slow cooker. Douse with a 16oz bottle of root beer. Cook on low for 8 hours. Pull apart. Mix in BBQ sauce and cheddar cheese to taste. This can end up tasting too good, so you might need to portion control when you eat it.

Roast beef (or roast lamb, or roast anything) Buy an oven roast and rub in salt and pepper. Cook according to the times laid out here http://www.thehealthybutcher.com/livetoeat/volume23/TheHealt... Very simple, yet amazingly delicious right out of the oven.

Baked Chicken Buy a mix of thighs and breasts. Slice the breasts in half so they are the same thickness as the thighs. Brush with olive oil and sprinkle with salt and pepper. Cook at 400 degrees until they are 160degrees internal temp (37 minutes in my oven, when laid out on a rack, not on the baking pan directly). Once you have baked the chicken, you can eat straight up the first night. Then in succeeding nights you can mix with tomato sauce and do pasta, mix with cheese and make a quesadilla, mix with coconut milk, red curry paste, and peanut butter and do a thai chicken, etc. By doing the work of cooking the chicken all in one night, in following nights you can make a variety of healthy, delicious meals in under 10 minutes. Just reheat the chicken in a sauce and you have instant goodness.

Roast veggies But three 1pound bags of frozen veggies - brussel sprouts, "fiesta mix", brocoli, whatever you like. Put in strainer and run water over to thaw out a bit. Dry. Put on baking pans. Brush with olive oil, salt, and pepper. Put in oven at 425 degrees for 25 minutes. If using multiple pans, switch the racks half-way through. It is even better if you do fresh veggies, but it is more prep work in cutting them to the proper size.

Re: Calories in, calories out

#63
post #2

This has been a very hot topic on HN in the past, so I suspect the comments section will soon blow up. I've always though of the "calories in vs calories out" technique for weight loss to be the starting point for the majority of people trying to lose weight. Reign in how many calories you're eating, start burning a few more (even just walking a block or two for most people is a great start) and you'll see significan…

Calorie counting technique is basically this: "You need to eat less, here is a nifty tool to help you to keep track and maybe make a bit motivated once you see all those numbers". That may work for some people but for vast majority it won't help at all. Overweight/obese people very often know they need to eat less, the problem is they can't do it. "Count calories and don't go over deficit" is basically like saying to…

>"You need to eat less

In the first 4 words you've already missed the entire point.

Never once has it ever been said you should eat less.

Just eat less calories, not less quantity.

Re: Calories in, calories out

#64
post #6
post #2

This has been a very hot topic on HN in the past, so I suspect the comments section will soon blow up. I've always though of the "calories in vs calories out" technique for weight loss to be the starting point for the majority of people trying to lose weight. Reign in how many calories you're eating, start burning a few more (even just walking a block or two for most people is a great start) and you'll see significan…

I don't really disagree with you, but. These suggestions ignore the (soft) limitations of human agency. The degree of difficulty in (not) eating an additional (something) has never been really quantified in sufficiently broad spectrum of situations, to my knowledge. A generally helpful and encouraging life can lead to many positive changes, weight loss not least among them. Maybe instead of telling fat people to lose…

> The degree of difficulty in (not) eating an additional (something)

You've missed the entire point.

Never once has it ever been said you should eat less.

Just eat less calories, not less quantity.

(This reply is so important I replied to two different people with it)

Re: Calories in, calories out

#65
post #50

Gut bacteria are a big confounder among a bunch of other things. Different types can do a lot of things differently, like extract more calories from the same food. http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2012-09/ci-gbi091012.... They can even mess with your mind to make you crave junk food. http://www.ucsf.edu/news/2014/08/116526/do-gut-bacteria-rule... Transplanting them from a thin human to an obese mice slimmed the…

actually, almost ANY diet works. if you are over weight and reduce your calorie intake: you.will.loose.weight.period. people have a tendency to either not adhere to the diet over time or not partake in the diet at all by listening to people say: all these other magical factors effect your weight, why bother? negative platitudes if you will. 'its not that 4000 calorie a day diet that is making you fat, its genetics!'…

> actually, almost ANY diet works. if you are over weight and reduce your calorie intake: you.will.loose.weight.period.

What we are saying here is that you reduce your calorie intake within the range where gut bacteria can act, it might not have any effect, or even negative effect.

If you reduce your calorie intake below the level gut bacteria activity matters, you will lose weight, but only if you can sustain the diet for basically the rest of your life.

If the diet doesn't fit you, you will be fighting your body every single day, and your body might cave in and it becomes your new norm, or you can't stand it anymore and go back to your previous behavior.

Fighting your body until it gives up is such a brute force method it's just hell on earth (we say "your body", but litteraly you're punishing yourself). Experimentally the vast majority of people won't be able to brute force their behavior And metabolism, and have to find a diet that fits them. S

What I'm saying is sustaining low calorie intake is a result of having a diet that works. The relevant part is to find that diet in the first place.

Re: Calories in, calories out

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had great success starting from a strict calories in vs. calories out diet, and then iterating on what I ate to make myself the most satiated per calorie eaten. Turns out that the diet that solves for satiation ends up being a lot of plain chicken and meat, beans, roasted veggies, modest amounts of starch, and no sugar. (Eating a handful of jelly beans would make be starving 30 minutes later). The other thing I fou…

That's actually a great point, and something I've told friends in a "broscience" fashion: There is nearly nothing in nature that combines fats and carbs. It's almost like you need to choose one or the other - balance is how you get into trouble, because then you think everything is legal. Take, for instance, potato chips -- and not the low-fat Baked Lay's or Quest Chips kind. If you're on a "balanced diet", they're l…

> The biggest problem I forgot to mention above, however, is that people will read all sorts of literature, but when it comes to actually weighing their food with a food scale (costs literally $20) and counting their calories and macros, they all fail.

There recently was a story in Norwegian media about a person that had gone down some X kgs (basically from overweight to more healthy) -- by eating a strict diet of ready-made meals (heat in the microwave type stuff). The reason behind this anecdote? They all list calorie content. No need to measure (again). Is it a healthy diet? Probably not (high salt, high fat, low vitamins, little variation... the list goes on).

But it's easy to then try and follow up on calorie count.

Re: Calories in, calories out

#67
"I learned that it is really hard to accurately measure calories consumed, even if you are trying. "

I'd just like to highlight this, because it is profoundly true. There are probably very few people who have the patience to log everything they eat, diet or no diet, unless they have some kind of payoff close at hand! Even if you do log everything you eat, it's still not easy. Here are just a few reasons why:

1. The best foods to eat on a diet don't come in prepackaged portions with the calorie count labelled on the back.

2. Packaged food often does not have anywhere near the same calories as the label claims. Food manufacturers often aren't very precise and they have an incentive to underestimate.

3. The ideal way to measure the absorbable caloric content of food would be to feed it (and nothing else) to human test-subjects (other animals can metabolize foods quite differently; e.g. grass and cows) for an extended period of time while strictly regulating the test-subjects' physical activity. Measure the weight change, and there you have it. Yeah... This experiment is never going to happen. That's why we stick food in a calorimeter, burn it, and consider the heat it provides to be a measure of its caloric content. This crude method provides decent estimates on average, but can occasionally be misleading.

For these reasons, I'm actually a bit surprised that the author's data matches the theory so closely. This indicates the author scrupulously measured his portion sizes, found accurate estimates for the caloric content of the foods he ate, and logged everything. This is seriously impressive. If the author had failed to log something as insignificant as the sugar and cream he puts in his coffee it would have thrown his numbers way off over a period of 75 days. Similarly, he must have scrupulously recorded his physical activities. The fit is so perfect I actually suspect he... ah... played with his data slightly after the fact. A "fortuitous" choice for alpha is obviously helpful too.

One other thing worth pointing out is that weighing yourself daily and plotting it on a graph like this is a fantastic way to observe progress and stay motivated to stick to your new routine. First, if you don't regularly observe your weight then you have no feedback. If you fail to accurately measure your caloric intake/expenditure the results might not be as desired. Feedback is necessary. However, daily feedback can be wildly misleading if you don't place it in context. If you look at the author's data, there are plenty of ups and downs around the trend. For example, on day 7 he observed a large gain and on day 8 a large loss. If the author only kept the previous day's weight in his head he might conclude that he did poorly on day 6 and made up for it on day 7. In reality, he might have consumed very healthy, fiber-rich food (e.g. a lot of beans) on day 6 and a bunch of sugar-rich processed garbage on day 7. The author might have stored away some fat on day 7 but wound up weighing less on day 8 purely because of passing the fiber from his meal on day 6. Pure sugar doesn't leave much behind to be passed!

I do question the worth of calculating your caloric deficit. It's simply too hard to get an accurate measure of consumption. However, measuring your weight regularly and plotting it so you can observe the larger trend is invaluable. About five years ago I dropped 60 pounds (it's still off, and I've gained lean muscle mass). I didn't count calories. I simply measured my weight regularly and plotted it on a graph similar to the author. I looked at the larger trend and made small adjustments gradually to keep it going in the right direction. If you don't weigh yourself regularly you can undo months worth of progress with one new bad habit. If you don't place your weight in context you'll have difficulty identifying habits that are a problem. Finally, watching that line steadily come down is a fantastic way to stay motivated.

Re: Calories in, calories out

#68
post #47

Gut bacteria are a big confounder among a bunch of other things. Different types can do a lot of things differently, like extract more calories from the same food. http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2012-09/ci-gbi091012.... They can even mess with your mind to make you crave junk food. http://www.ucsf.edu/news/2014/08/116526/do-gut-bacteria-rule... Transplanting them from a thin human to an obese mice slimmed the…

> There are more gut bacteria than human cells in our body "[That] is technically true, in the sense that Vin Diesel is outnumbered by a small bag of crickets." http://carcinisation.com/2014/08/14/science-journalism-march...

Thanks for linking me to this. I too made the incorrect assumption.

Re: Calories in, calories out

#69
As a 6'4", 200lbs male my maintenance calories going to the gym 2.5 times a week (5 times every 2 weeks) was 2700. But once you get thinner, the weight loss slows because of slowing metabolism, so under 190lbs (and under 15% bf) my maintenance probably decreased by a lot because my weight loss slowed considerably.

Re: Calories in, calories out

#70
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A calorie = a calorie is as true and as useless as answering the question "Why are there so many people inside the Super Bowl stadium during the game" by saying "Because more people entered it than who left, if only people didn't get in, it would be empty". "Why is it warmer in the summer than the winter?" "Because your hemisphere took in more calories than it gave off." True! And anyone who denies it is just argui…

There's been work and research that state gaining weight is not a simple matter of calorie in = calorie out. Gary Taubes has written a lot about it.

The thing is, how many calories does a piece of food contain? What is says on the packet? Probably not. Second is, how much calories do you burn? The same amount as the watts you generated on the circuit machine? Probably not.

And of those calories you got in, how many left through the waste canal?

Obviously it is a question of calories in = calories out, the question is whether what we are measuring is even close to either side of that equation.

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