Live data from Hacker News

The Statistical Problem With Soccer

technologyreview.com

1–10 of 39 posts

Re: The Statistical Problem With Soccer

#3
I used to play a lot of cards. Like, a whole lot. Every now and then a card-playing friend of mine would complain about their luck, and I always answered the same way:

"People don't gamble on Chess."

So very quickly:

> Their approach is to think of a soccer game as an experiment to determine which of two teams is the best. The question then is this: what is the probability that the outcome of the experiment truly represents the relative abilities of the two teams. And the answer, unfortunately, is not very probable.

This is not a bug; it is a feature. Spectator sports have drama and theatrics and exist first as entertainment, and only second as a contest of skill.

In Major League Baseball, the New York Yankees are far and away the best team this year. It's not even close. Almost all their position players are between top 3 and top 10 at their position, they have a very solid top of the rotation and mid rotation, and good to amazing relief pitching.

They'll compete with eight other teams to win baseball's championship, the World Series. I'd put their chances around 22% of winning it all. But they're far and away, clearly, the best team in baseball.

But that's why people watch. People don't gamble on Chess.

Re: The Statistical Problem With Soccer

#4
Miss the point of cup competitions more?

The whole point of tournaments like this is to encourage upsets. In fact, the whole point of soccer being scored the way it is is to encourage upsets. There have been studies that show that low-scoring games like soccer have a higher likelihood of upsets than high-scoring games like American football.

The chance of an upset is why lower lever teams play so hard. It's why higher-level teams still have to play their socks off instead of just cruising. It's why the goals that are scored are exciting goals, not just half-assed following of the play book. It's about not just being the best team technically, it's about being able to play at that level consistently. It's about having to work for a cup win.

If those muppets are so enamoured with stats, maybe they should just declare who the best team in the world is now from the stats of their player's league games, and then we can dispense with the world cup altogether and have a more accurate result to boot? No? Sounds ridiculous? Then this entire study is a waste of time.

Re: The Statistical Problem With Soccer

#5

I used to play a lot of cards. Like, a whole lot. Every now and then a card-playing friend of mine would complain about their luck, and I always answered the same way: "People don't gamble on Chess." So very quickly: > Their approach is to think of a soccer game as an experiment to determine which of two teams is the best. The question then is this: what is the probability that the outcome of the experiment truly rep…

Furthermore, the contest is not skill-on-paper or skill-over-a-season, the contest is skill-right-now. The NE Patriots won 18 straight American football games (the only team to have an undefeated 16-game regular season), yet they still had to try to win the Super Bowl. They came within a couple of minutes of doing so until an improbable catch gave the Giants the chance to win the game. As ESPN's Chris Berman once said, 'that's why they play the game.'

Re: The Statistical Problem With Soccer

#6
It might be true the best team only has 28% chance of winning the World Cup. Though, we should know that it leaves only 72% chance for the rest of the 31 teams to win, and they are not uniform. So maybe 28% for the best team, 20% for the 2nd best, 12% for the 3rd best, etc., which sounds fair to me.

There are 32 teams playing the World Cup, if one of them is a 1:3.5 dog, they have a pretty DAMN GOOD chance. The betting odd is usually sth like 1:4 or 1:5, I think.

More importantly, the team which wins is the better team, by definition. It is a question whether they can perform consistently in a series of matches with the correct strategy each time, whether they can adapt to changes, whether they are focused at the important moments. Certainly there will be luck and drama, but the team which plays better (for most of the match duration) wins much more often than that number 28% tells you.

Look at professional poker. You can for sure say that there is more luck involved, but times and again the familiar faces show up at the final tables.

Re: The Statistical Problem With Soccer

#7
post #2

All sports are like this - they try and eliminate it with multi game playoffs, but you can't do that with intense games like this.

The NBA, NHL, and Major League Baseball do exactly that. They eliminate with multi-game playoffs.

Or do you mean soccer's intensity is like American Football, in that it is just too physically demanding to play that many games?

Re: The Statistical Problem With Soccer

#8
I think this is at the root of what really bugs (some) U.S. Americans about soccer, but they are unable to express it.

Sports popular in the U.S. almost seem designed to allow for statistical analysis. Baseball is the ultimate game for a statistician, as you have data for every single pitch thrown and the outcome. American Football breaks the game down into series of discrete events (downs) each of which has a numerical outcomes (yards gained or lost). Basketball generates 10s of events every game with a definite outcome that can generally be assigned to a single player (shot made, missed, turnover, free throw, rebound, etc.).

All of this gives fans ways to analyze and rank individual players and teams in a fairly objective way. Thus, the immense popularity of fantasy leagues.

Soccer is inherently more subjective, as there are far fewer events with an objective outcome. With scoring a rare event, and no obvious ways to assign numerical values to all the things that happen between scoring chances, subjective analysis is all that's available.

Which ties back into the original article in that freak occurrences and dumb luck can have a much larger impact in soccer. One team can play much better for most of the game, but a freak goal, controversial call or uncharacteristic error can have an outsize impact in a low scoring affair. This is mitigated in the round robin format rounds with accumulated wins and points, but is very much a factor in one-and-done games.

I believe I read before that at one time even the final round was a multi team affair, with the champion determined by cumulative totals against the other teams, but it was done away with because fans wanted a definitive championship match between just two teams.

Re: The Statistical Problem With Soccer

#10
- "In fact, Skinner and Freeman have carried out an extensive statistical analysis of the scores at the last World Cup. They point out that if the outcomes of games were a true reflection of the teams' abilities, then the situation "Team A beats Team B beats Team C which beats Team A" should never occur. They call this an intransitive triplet."

The outcome of the game is never meant to be a "true reflection" of the teams' abilities, but a reflection of their ability against that side, on that day, in those conditions. A round-robin style tournament is used to have a team playing different opponents, a mix of different styles. Central attacking sides. Defense and counter-attack. Wide open matches. Closed central movement. Teams alter their strategy against specific opponents and try to find holes in their game and exploit an edge.

This seems like a problem with the statistical model, not with the sport, because "A > B > C > A" is possible in a team sport, and not just because of a luck factor. One team may have strengths that exploit certain weaknesses in other teams. That are uncountable examples - Team A lacks fitness and is weaker in the last 20 minutes; but this will only be exploited by a team who have a high fitness level. Team B has as weak left wing, but this will only be exploited by a team with a strong right winger. The list goes on.

Post reply on HN