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1984 v. Brave New World

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Re: 1984 v. Brave New World

#161

Post by bigtunacan »

vec wrote: post #127
bigtunacan wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like 1984 and "A Brave New World" are occurring simultaneously to varying degrees in society, but I expect in the long run, massive unexpected events (world war, sun goes nova, whatever...) that eventually we will settle into something more akin to "A Brave New World". It is simply less effort for those in power to manage a society by drugs and indirect manipulation than by brute force. Think of all the distra…

> Fast forward to that child as an adult; they have spent their whole life on behavioral modifying drugs and start to feel uncomfortable or dissatisfied with their lot in life. What are these "strange feelings", so off to the doctor they go where they can be diagnosed with depression and get put on some Paxil/Prozac/Zoloft so they can be content going back to that same hum drum existence they were starting to questio…

> Not to derail the conversation too much, but fuck you. That's not even close to what depression is or how it works. Depression isn't when your life sucks so you feel bad, it's when you feel bad for no reason, even when your life is objectively pretty good. It's a well documented medical phenomenon that can fortunately be managed rather well with, among other things, medication. Comments like this, though, serve only to stigmatize treatment and actively discourage people from seeking help.

You don't know me; and you almost certainly haven't seen the personal affects of depression up close like I have.

My post was in no way "belittling" depression. The fact is a mix of lazy doctors, lazy teachers, and yes lazy parents makes it very easy for children to be put on drugs for ADHD. So much so that the FDA has launched investigations into this practice, but ultimately no change has come out of. Also FACT, Ritalin and Adderall are both known to cause drug induced depression to such an extent that is has been highly tied to teen and young adult suicides. Catching this early results in treatment with anti-depressants to continue mood altering. This is a case where the patients do not suffer underlying depressive disorders, but rather it is directly caused by long term use of other mood altering drugs that in many cases were not necessary.

This is a situation where you have unwittingly stuck your foot in your mouth. You have no idea the level of irony that you just reached by trying to call me out on this.

Re: 1984 v. Brave New World

#163

Post by Ar-Curunir »

epidemian wrote: post #152
jonnathanson wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If not for the eugenics, genetics and soma, it sounds like a nice place to live! Freer sex, freer entertainment, more automation, more leisure... It's radical, certainly, but not in a bad way" Well, it's all fun and games if you happen to win the genetic dice roll and end up as an Alpha. I imagine it's considerably less fun if you're a Gamma. More to the point, the world in Brave New World isn't dystopian on account…

As the grand parent, i also see the society of Brave New World as much less dystopian than usually portrayed. > Well, it's all fun and games if you happen to win the genetic dice roll and end up as an Alpha. I imagine it's considerably less fun if you're a Gamma. Yes, from the external point of view of a book reader, i would prefer to "win the genetic dice roll". But if i were decanted as a Gamma, i wouldn't mind, i…

Isn't this basically an endorsement of the caste system and a form of slavery?

Huxley's society functions largely because no one questions their role in it. Gammas have no aspiration to rise up because theu have been coached to not have any aspirations.

Thus doesn't this form of society rob humans of the ony characteristic that separates them from animals?The ability to think, reason and make decisions for themselves. A world where humans cannot and ARE NOT allowed to think for themselves is definitely a horrible dystopia.

At least in 1984 some humans still have the ability to think for themselves. In BNW they have no choice in the matter, unless of course they are born with the ability, which again resembles the relative freedom of the Party members from 1984. Come to think of it, the upper echelons of both societies employ a sort of doublethink, whereby they convince themselves that what they are doing is correct.

There really isn't much difference between the two societies, in 1984 the commoners get to fuck and entertain themselves as they wish, and the same goes for society in BNW.

Re: 1984 v. Brave New World

#164

Post by theworst »

netcan wrote: post #22

These are two giants in science fiction, in political philosophy and in pop culture. I'm a big fan of both. Great to read a discussion between them. First, there's the artistic stele of the books. 1984 has got this graphic novel, Noir feel to it, like Walking Dead or Sin City. Brave New World has this brightly colored surreal feel to it. It's hard to compare books that are different in this way. Overall, Orwell's wor…

I'd just like to say that Disneyland has always felt like BNW to me. In that sense, it seems more realistic, because I've experienced something like it in today's society.

Re: 1984 v. Brave New World

#165

Post by vec »

bigtunacan wrote: post #161
vec wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Fast forward to that child as an adult; they have spent their whole life on behavioral modifying drugs and start to feel uncomfortable or dissatisfied with their lot in life. What are these "strange feelings", so off to the doctor they go where they can be diagnosed with depression and get put on some Paxil/Prozac/Zoloft so they can be content going back to that same hum drum existence they were starting to questio…

> Not to derail the conversation too much, but fuck you. That's not even close to what depression is or how it works. Depression isn't when your life sucks so you feel bad, it's when you feel bad for no reason, even when your life is objectively pretty good. It's a well documented medical phenomenon that can fortunately be managed rather well with, among other things, medication. Comments like this, though, serve onl…

> You don't know me; and you almost certainly haven't seen the personal affects of depression up close like I have.

I have, actually. The person I care about did not have any substantial pre-depression experience with mood altering substances, prescription or otherwise, but post-depression treatment with antidepressents has been a huge help to them and, indirectly, to me and the rest of my family. Nevertheless, I do have a pretty good guess as to what your experience has been like.

My post was intemperate, to say the least. Your post struck a nerve with me and provoked a reaction that was undeserved. I've had to deal with one too many "depression isn't real" and "people just want happy pills" attitudes in the past and it's apparently caused my reading comprehension to suffer. I painted with far too broad a brush and you have my sincerest apologies.

Re: 1984 v. Brave New World

#166

Post by emiliobumachar »

chiaro wrote: post #135
solitus wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about all those anti-anxiety, anti-depressant and ADHD drugs ? Many students I know were on ADHD drugs even though they didn't really need it. Many professionals are on anti-anxiety and anti-depressants now too...

While true, it's a pretty uniquely American problem. Not many other countries even allow for prescription medicine to be advertised to consumers.

Mass obesity was also a pretty uniquely American problem, until it wasn't.

Re: 1984 v. Brave New World

#167

Post by EdiX »

krapp wrote: post #51
nobbyclark wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Technology can help create newer, more engaging distractions. Watching how people react to the Occulus, "OMG it's sooo real!" I can't help thinking how badly screwed we are as a species when it goes mainstream. FarmVille addiction, World of Warcraft will look like a walk in the park to Occulus addicts who no longer know or care what reality is. Perhaps I'm just overly pessimistic

I don't think that's going to happen. No matter now realistic Oculus appears, it's still just a device strapped to your face - it's not that immersive.

Which is why people wearing corrective lenses feel so detached from the world. You are seriously underestimating the ability of the human brain to tune out irrelevant inputs.

Re: 1984 v. Brave New World

#168

Post by new299 »

epidemian wrote: post #152
jonnathanson wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If not for the eugenics, genetics and soma, it sounds like a nice place to live! Freer sex, freer entertainment, more automation, more leisure... It's radical, certainly, but not in a bad way" Well, it's all fun and games if you happen to win the genetic dice roll and end up as an Alpha. I imagine it's considerably less fun if you're a Gamma. More to the point, the world in Brave New World isn't dystopian on account…

As the grand parent, i also see the society of Brave New World as much less dystopian than usually portrayed. > Well, it's all fun and games if you happen to win the genetic dice roll and end up as an Alpha. I imagine it's considerably less fun if you're a Gamma. Yes, from the external point of view of a book reader, i would prefer to "win the genetic dice roll". But if i were decanted as a Gamma, i wouldn't mind, i…

I think you first have to clearly define what aspects your trying to maximise. Maximising "happiness" doesn't seem to be viable, because you can just suggest that the human brain will be modified such that it will be happy whatever it does.

So, the first question in my mind, is to define what characteristics you want to maximise in society. Without such a set of characteristics it's hard to say "this social structure is better".

I also think it's unlikely that a clear consensus on this metric can be found. That is, if it is even meaningful to create one.

Re: 1984 v. Brave New World

#169

Post by n09n »

jonnathanson wrote: post #143
tikhonj wrote: post #98

I actually agree with some of the other commenters in this thread: Huxley's dystopia is, well, far less dystopian than Orwell's. Or, in a more nuanced look, Huxley's book suffers an unfortunate dichotomy: the things that are bad are not realistic and the things that are realistic are not bad. The legitimately dystopian part of Brave New World are often technical in nature—effectively mind control through drugs and a…

"If not for the eugenics, genetics and soma, it sounds like a nice place to live! Freer sex, freer entertainment, more automation, more leisure... It's radical, certainly, but not in a bad way" Well, it's all fun and games if you happen to win the genetic dice roll and end up as an Alpha. I imagine it's considerably less fun if you're a Gamma. More to the point, the world in Brave New World isn't dystopian on account…

I think you missed the whole point of the book. If you were a gamma, you would like being a gamma, and wouldn't want to be an alpha. The only reason you feel the way you do now from the outside is because you are pretentious enough to fancy yourself an alpha.

Re: 1984 v. Brave New World

#170

Post by JacksonGariety »

gweinberg wrote: post #131
jjoonathan wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then it should be easy to argue the point instead of offering feigned surprise that someone might think that way.

Good and bad are fundamentally subjective. If you look at BNW and think "that's not so bad", we;ll just have to agree to disagree.

But now the "intellectuals" (like OP) who have the power are drastically far removed from the common person, and thus their opinions of good and evil are harmful.
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