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A Natural A/B Test of Harassment

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Re: A Natural A/B Test of Harassment

#61

Post by vacri »

paulnechifor wrote: post #42
vacri wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The impassioned hysteria over 'ethics in video game journalism' is the problematic part, not the issue itself. And, to be frank, that ridiculous level of hysteria makes it clear that it's not really about ethics in video game journalism. No-one is dead or has been maimed by it. Lives aren't destroyed by it. Basically, it's a good example of dog whistle politics, using a term that is more palatable to push a less pala…

> The impassioned hysteria over 'ethics in video game journalism' is the problematic part, not the issue itself. The fact that people like you are saying that others have no right to be concerned and angry about unethical journalism is the reason for the impassioned hysteria in the first place. > And, to be frank, that ridiculous level of hysteria makes it clear that it's not really about ethics in video game journal…

I've been a heavy gamer for 25 years, with literally hundreds of games in my Steam account (I started out with Amiga floppies), and my heaviest-played games in that steam list have over half a thousand hours on them, each. I'm a heavy gamer, it's my vice, and I've been part of the 'scene' for a long time.

So I'm not commenting as an outsider when I say that gamers, as a demographic, are the most self-entitled bunch of whiners I've ever seen. I've worked in tech support, in medicine, in retail, with children... and nothing holds a candle to the gaming community when they feel wronged. Every issue is blown way out of proportion. And they need to be called on it, because otherwise they keep on doing it. I'm so tired of this manufactured outrage. I see less passion in the comments when there's an article about child sexual abuse on a newspaper website, and that's a crime that raises pretty much everyone's hackles.

So, speaking as a lifelong heavy gamer, this GamerGate bullshit has little to do with ethics in gaming journalism - a field that is so tangential to the important things in the human experience. Note also that I never said it was nothing to be concerned about or no right to complain; I said that the levels of hysterical concern were ridiculous and overblown.

But of course, if you were actually interested in integrity, you wouldn't have characterised my comments of 'ridiculous levels of hysteria' as 'expecting complete calm', as if that's the only other possible option. A classic strawman fallacy. Perhaps you should show some of this integrity that you demand of others?

Perhaps I should put it a different way: Issues with the supply of your entertainment are never worth a death threat.

Re: A Natural A/B Test of Harassment

#62

Post by hackuser »

defen wrote: post #31
htns wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I've heard about Gamergate in a couple of wildly different contexts. What's the deal with it?

The extreme nutshell version is that a female indie game developer supposedly slept with a male video game journalist, and this supposedly let to favorable coverage for her game that would not have happened otherwise. The surface phenomenon is that a lot of people united under the banner of #gamergate to protest this breach of journalistic ethics. The dark side is that it seems like it's really just a bunch of people…

The essential issue, omitted by the summary above, is the aggressive harassment of women and of those who speak out about this problem. Three women (that I know of) have left their homes, fearing for their safety. Many others have had their personal information, such as their addresses, published online. That is what many people object to.

For example, the author of this article,

http://www.polygon.com/2014/7/22/5926193/women-gaming-harass...

... was harassed and threatened to the point that she left her home:

http://kotaku.com/another-woman-in-gaming-flees-home-followi...

Re: A Natural A/B Test of Harassment

#63

Post by wismer »

towaway5098 wrote: post #59
andrewvc wrote: post #28

What I urge people in this thread to do is not to pick up a google search, or read a book, but to just go out and ask a few female friends what their thoughts are about being online, being safe, and being respected, and to listen with an open mind. I see a lot of denial in here, people rooting around for reasons to think that there isn't a serious fucking problem with intimidation and psychological violence taking pl…

Look to women in the industry and ask what they think. And not just the indies who are outside the industry. https://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/2jk2rq/ama_... If you have a twitter account, go ask #NotYourShield what women think of this as well. Don't just take any single persons word on this. Also, is this being downvoted because you don't want to read it?

A racist man says: "I'm not racist; I have black friends." Do you see what's wrong with that statement?

Re: A Natural A/B Test of Harassment

#64

Post by andrewvc »

hug wrote: post #48
krschultz wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

common perception seems to be that women face a level of harassment hugely disproportionate to that experienced by men, however studies don't show such a large gap #1) The study shows that 4x as many women than man have been stalked. It also shows that 2x as many women have experienced sexual harassment compared to men. #2) This data shows % of people that have ever been harassed. It doesn't quantify the amount of ha…

Online harassment is not a small problem at all. It's a problem that definitely needs to be addressed, and women do see more of a specific type of harassment, which aligns nicely with what I said in my original post: "women clearly have it worse in terms of targeted sexual harassment." Like I said, it's interestingly overstated, though. Both you and andrewvc are engaging in the same type of cherrypicking I'm accused…

I think the thing you might not be aware of is that your posts are attempting to sidestep real issues. Instead of focusing the discussion around acknowledging and preventing abuse and discrimination, you're quibbling over whether women are harassed a whole lot, or a hell of a lot.

Can you understand why that might seem like a diversionary tactic?

Re: A Natural A/B Test of Harassment

#66

Post by mindslight »

htns wrote: post #26
mesozoic wrote: post #14

Gamergate is leaking again.

Yeah, I've heard about Gamergate in a couple of wildly different contexts. What's the deal with it?

In 2037, this exact question will be quoted in a Supreme Appstore verdict on the illegality of tabphlets advocating dodging the interplanetary draft.

Re: A Natural A/B Test of Harassment

#67

Post by hackuser »

vacri wrote: post #61
paulnechifor wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The impassioned hysteria over 'ethics in video game journalism' is the problematic part, not the issue itself. The fact that people like you are saying that others have no right to be concerned and angry about unethical journalism is the reason for the impassioned hysteria in the first place. > And, to be frank, that ridiculous level of hysteria makes it clear that it's not really about ethics in video game journal…

I've been a heavy gamer for 25 years, with literally hundreds of games in my Steam account (I started out with Amiga floppies), and my heaviest-played games in that steam list have over half a thousand hours on them, each. I'm a heavy gamer, it's my vice, and I've been part of the 'scene' for a long time. So I'm not commenting as an outsider when I say that gamers, as a demographic, are the most self-entitled bunch o…

> nothing holds a candle to the gaming community when they feel wronged. Every issue is blown way out of proportion. And they need to be called on it, because otherwise they keep on doing it. I'm so tired of this manufactured outrage.

I have the same feelings but about other online communities, for example certain sports fan communities. It also applies to serious political issues, such as the hatred of certain politicians or viewpoints -- arguably these issues legitimately would get strong responses but really we all know what most of it is, as you said very well:

Manufactured outrage.

I've seen otherwise intelligent people I know get swept up in it. It's a danger to our society and I don't think I'm exaggerating. The same online brush-fire that rages against women in gaming today will rage for war, ethnic hatred, or other catastrophes tomorrow. Cynical leaders will manipulate it (and these people are easily manipulated).

It also ruins people's lives. Every victim of it that I've seen talk about it in retrospect, even public figures or those who played it cool at the time, has talked about how traumatizing it was.

Re: A Natural A/B Test of Harassment

#68

Post by [deleted] »

wismer wrote: post #63
towaway5098 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look to women in the industry and ask what they think. And not just the indies who are outside the industry. https://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/2jk2rq/ama_... If you have a twitter account, go ask #NotYourShield what women think of this as well. Don't just take any single persons word on this. Also, is this being downvoted because you don't want to read it?

A racist man says: "I'm not racist; I have black friends." Do you see what's wrong with that statement?

[deleted]

Re: A Natural A/B Test of Harassment

#69

Post by towaway5098 »

wismer wrote: post #63
towaway5098 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look to women in the industry and ask what they think. And not just the indies who are outside the industry. https://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/2jk2rq/ama_... If you have a twitter account, go ask #NotYourShield what women think of this as well. Don't just take any single persons word on this. Also, is this being downvoted because you don't want to read it?

A racist man says: "I'm not racist; I have black friends." Do you see what's wrong with that statement?

A Strawman? Guilty by association? Why don't you explain how that's not demeaning to thousands of people using #NotYourShield, who disagree?

"I'm not racist; I have black friends."

So you assume I'm white and doing this? That's an incredible assumption when you don't know anything about me personally.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYqBdCmDR0M

Re: A Natural A/B Test of Harassment

#70

Post by defen »

knowtheory wrote: post #60
defen wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, that's why I said "supposedly".

Yes, but saying "supposedly" is leaving the door open. The door is not open. No such thing ever happened.

If you ask Google to define "supposedly" it says: "according to what is generally assumed or believed (often used to indicate that the speaker doubts the truth of the statement)."

I hate these sort of semantic arguments. In case my sentence was not clear, I don't support the things that have been done to people under the guise of "Gamergate", I don't think she slept with anyone (nor do I care nor see why it is relevant), I don't think Kotaku gave the game good press because of the "alleged" romantic relationship, I honestly I don't give a shit about any of it, and I feel like I lost "the game" by even attempting to casually engage with this dumb fucking topic in any way.

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