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1984 v. Brave New World

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Re: 1984 v. Brave New World

#81

Post by bane »

netcan wrote: post #22

These are two giants in science fiction, in political philosophy and in pop culture. I'm a big fan of both. Great to read a discussion between them. First, there's the artistic stele of the books. 1984 has got this graphic novel, Noir feel to it, like Walking Dead or Sin City. Brave New World has this brightly colored surreal feel to it. It's hard to compare books that are different in this way. Overall, Orwell's wor…

I think the true genius of the modern age is that both approaches are used in the modern world.

Re: 1984 v. Brave New World

#82

Post by aaron-lebo »

bigtunacan wrote: post #55
netcan wrote: post #22

These are two giants in science fiction, in political philosophy and in pop culture. I'm a big fan of both. Great to read a discussion between them. First, there's the artistic stele of the books. 1984 has got this graphic novel, Noir feel to it, like Walking Dead or Sin City. Brave New World has this brightly colored surreal feel to it. It's hard to compare books that are different in this way. Overall, Orwell's wor…

I feel like 1984 and "A Brave New World" are occurring simultaneously to varying degrees in society, but I expect in the long run, massive unexpected events (world war, sun goes nova, whatever...) that eventually we will settle into something more akin to "A Brave New World". It is simply less effort for those in power to manage a society by drugs and indirect manipulation than by brute force. Think of all the distra…

You hit on something interesting here.

With a few exceptions, everyone on this site experienced childhood without the barrage of information and sensations that is the Internet.

It is scary to imagine how children who from birth have been trained to always look for entertainment through iPad games and the need to always be connected - how that might affect them. I suspect this is an overblown concern, people probably said the same when the television became a staple in society and human beings are adaptable. Still, children are especially malleable at that age, the impact modern technology will have on them is...interesting.

Re: 1984 v. Brave New World

#83

Post by mindslight »

mankyd wrote: post #53
netcan wrote: post #22

These are two giants in science fiction, in political philosophy and in pop culture. I'm a big fan of both. Great to read a discussion between them. First, there's the artistic stele of the books. 1984 has got this graphic novel, Noir feel to it, like Walking Dead or Sin City. Brave New World has this brightly colored surreal feel to it. It's hard to compare books that are different in this way. Overall, Orwell's wor…

A comic that juxtaposes then nicely: http://www.juxtapoz.com/current/huxley-vs-orwell-in-graphic-... I strongly feel that BNW is more realistic. Neither will play out in entirety, but we are certainly addicts of our opioid receptors.

The problem with this juxtaposition is that it leads one down the path of thinking each topic is a mutually exclusive all-or-nothing affair. From the perspective of an upper middle class software developer who is paid six figures to create cutely-named CRUD websites and reload Hacker News, it certainly feels like we're primarily victims of distraction. From the perspective of someone else who isn't an economic sure-bet and can't simply throw money at problems, the ever-invasive systems of control they run into are much more non-voluntary and absolute.

I'm certainly not arguing that the world should be viewed solely through the eyes of the lowest classes - I think this can result in focusing on zero-sum solutions that invariably invite more tentacles of control into our everyday lives. But looking at such perspectives is a good way to get over the initial "soft controls" and see that there definitely is a system of "hard controls" backing them up.

Re: 1984 v. Brave New World

#84

Post by vegedor »

driverdan wrote: post #76
Animats wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huxely's mechanisms of Soma, infant conditioning and narco-hypnosis feel less real. Marijuana legalization is Soma. We don't need as many workers any more, and pot will help to keep the drones passive.

I'll assume you don't know any adults who smoke. I know a number of startup founders who do (myself not included) and work their asses off. They are not being passive.

And you don't know Soma, do you? Work and pass out, rinse, repeat. Yeah, no, thank you.

>(myself not included)

You are not per chance paranoid or subconsciously ashamed?

Re: 1984 v. Brave New World

#85

Post by aaron-lebo »

driverdan wrote: post #76
Animats wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huxely's mechanisms of Soma, infant conditioning and narco-hypnosis feel less real. Marijuana legalization is Soma. We don't need as many workers any more, and pot will help to keep the drones passive.

I'll assume you don't know any adults who smoke. I know a number of startup founders who do (myself not included) and work their asses off. They are not being passive.

If you do know people who smoke it goes both ways. There's a lot of people that marijuana really does just kill their desire to do anything productive (though I can say the same thing about videogames or a number of other things).

On the other hand, I don't know too many people where pot has had the reverse effect, and increased their drive. It does seem to have a numbing effect, broadly speaking.

Not saying I completely agree with the OP's sentiment, though.

Re: 1984 v. Brave New World

#86

Post by amass »

bigtunacan wrote: post #55
netcan wrote: post #22

These are two giants in science fiction, in political philosophy and in pop culture. I'm a big fan of both. Great to read a discussion between them. First, there's the artistic stele of the books. 1984 has got this graphic novel, Noir feel to it, like Walking Dead or Sin City. Brave New World has this brightly colored surreal feel to it. It's hard to compare books that are different in this way. Overall, Orwell's wor…

I feel like 1984 and "A Brave New World" are occurring simultaneously to varying degrees in society, but I expect in the long run, massive unexpected events (world war, sun goes nova, whatever...) that eventually we will settle into something more akin to "A Brave New World". It is simply less effort for those in power to manage a society by drugs and indirect manipulation than by brute force. Think of all the distra…

The problem I have with this is that a historical maximum in the prescriptions for behavior controlling drugs doesn't seem to imply that society is any closer to BNW. Obtaining complete control over society through the use of drugs is significantly more challenging than simply giving every citizen a prescription.

Re: 1984 v. Brave New World

#87

Post by dleblanc »

chillingeffect wrote: post #80
bdkoepke wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brave New World is already here to some extent largely due to the work of Freud and his nephew Edward Bernays. The excellent documentary "The Century of the Self" explains this better than I ever could: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Century_of_the_Self . Overview from Wikipedia: "This series is about how those in power have used Freud's theories to try and control the dangerous crowd in an age of mass democracy."…

Upvoted for Century of Self. Everyone in the industrialized world should watch it. Although I will add that Freud's theories are only one part of it. The documentary really exposes a vast plethora of social control techniques.

Agreed - Century of Self is fantastic.

Along the same lines as Noam Chomsky's "Manufacturing Consent". The book is great, and there's a documentary from 92: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzufDdQ6uKg

Re: 1984 v. Brave New World

#88

Post by aaron-lebo »

krapp wrote: post #77
Consultant32452 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eventually it will just be a pair of contact lenses, or even an ocular implant.

Even then, you're aware of the contacts or the implant, unless you're living in the Matrix and were genetically engineered with a AV jack in your spinal column.

Their overall point stands, though.

If people can get this addicted and consumed to World of Warcraft or Facebook games, imagine what will happen when that's literally at eye-level.

Re: 1984 v. Brave New World

#89

Post by vegedor »

ojbyrne wrote: post #78
netcan wrote: post #22

These are two giants in science fiction, in political philosophy and in pop culture. I'm a big fan of both. Great to read a discussion between them. First, there's the artistic stele of the books. 1984 has got this graphic novel, Noir feel to it, like Walking Dead or Sin City. Brave New World has this brightly colored surreal feel to it. It's hard to compare books that are different in this way. Overall, Orwell's wor…

Brave New World is satire. It's _supposed_ to be over the top.

Satire is humorous in mind.

Edit: Maybe It is funny if you get the message and I just don't get the kind of dark humor, though.

Re: 1984 v. Brave New World

#90

Post by prof_hobart »

aprdm wrote: post #6

Illustrates it well: http://postimg.org/image/ue0pdq56r/

I think the reality is a combination of the two. Most of the world (including the media) is so distracted by the entertainment trivia of Brave New World that almost no one cares about the 1984 surveillance/censorship world that is being constructed all around is.
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