1984 v. Brave New World • Hacker News Board

Re: 1984 v. Brave New World

#71

Post by dredmorbius » Thu, Oct 23, 2014, 6:45 PM UTC

Something I realized only recently regarding Brave New World and 1984: the former is a criticism of its own society, that is, Western commercialism, capitalism, entertainment, and escapism. The latter is a criticism of the other society, that is, Soviet Marxist-Leninist-Stalinist Communism.

From the point of view that criticism of your own enemy is often far easier to swallow than criticism of yourself, it isn't quite so surprising that 1984 is the more popular and better-known work.

Both are tremendously prescient.

As noted elsewhere in comments, Neil Postman, particularly Amusing Ourselves to Death, continues Huxley's critique. Postman himself is very strongly influenced by (and studied under) Marshall McLuhan. You'll also find this theme in Jason Benlevi's Too Much Magic, and other more recent works.

Re: 1984 v. Brave New World

#72

Post by PuercoPop » Thu, Oct 23, 2014, 6:46 PM UTC

genghisjahn wrote: post #46

wmnwmn wrote: post #42

BNW is a deeper book than 1984 because with BNW the first task is to say why that world is even bad to begin with. BNW represents the logical conclusion of a philosophy in which happiness is the top priority. In my opinion it shows that happiness can not be the top priority of life, contrary to the propaganda of marketers and psychologists over the past century. Life is not inherently happy and the attempt to make it…

So...life is pain? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqaNi0UfOoI

Life is Struggle.

“Why, suffering is the sole origin of consciousness. Though I did lay it down at the beginning that consciousness is the greatest misfortune for man, yet I know man prizes it and would not give it up for any satisfaction.”[0]

http://dostoyevsky.thefreelibrary.com/Notes-from-the-Undergr...

Re: 1984 v. Brave New World

#73

Post by vvpan » Thu, Oct 23, 2014, 6:52 PM UTC

Also, a little known fact is that 1984 is essentially a remake of a 1924 novel by Yevgeny Zamyatin "We".

Re: 1984 v. Brave New World

#74

Post by musername » Thu, Oct 23, 2014, 6:59 PM UTC

netcan wrote: post #22

These are two giants in science fiction, in political philosophy and in pop culture. I'm a big fan of both. Great to read a discussion between them. First, there's the artistic stele of the books. 1984 has got this graphic novel, Noir feel to it, like Walking Dead or Sin City. Brave New World has this brightly colored surreal feel to it. It's hard to compare books that are different in this way. Overall, Orwell's wor…

>science-fiction

yeah, right. Which invention was there in the books, that seemed unlikely at the time and that had a significa t impact on the story?

Drugs, microphones, cameras, TVs were basically an old hat at the time, like 50 years past for television and the phone, not comparing consumer articles. The stretch from widely available radio to TV is not a big one.

The control and deception, dissociation and assimilation likewise. 1984 was the time of WW2 no less. What do you know about the situation in some hidden archipellagos somewhere in Oceania.

BNW i found much less irritating, though it is not far from reality either. The only take away for me was sociatal exclusion, soma and population control through distraction. Enough in my bookkeeping, but not much science is involved.

Re: 1984 v. Brave New World

#75

Post by aaron-lebo » Thu, Oct 23, 2014, 7:03 PM UTC

wmnwmn wrote: post #42

BNW is a deeper book than 1984 because with BNW the first task is to say why that world is even bad to begin with. BNW represents the logical conclusion of a philosophy in which happiness is the top priority. In my opinion it shows that happiness can not be the top priority of life, contrary to the propaganda of marketers and psychologists over the past century. Life is not inherently happy and the attempt to make it…

“The Savage nodded, frowning. "You got rid of them. Yes, that's just like you. Getting rid of everything unpleasant instead of learning to put up with it. Whether 'tis better in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows or outrageous fortune, or to take arms against a sea of troubles and by opposing end them...But you don't do either. Neither suffer nor oppose. You just abolish the slings and arrows. It's too easy."

..."What you need," the Savage went on, "is something with tears for a change. Nothing costs enough here.”

The Savage's conversation with Mustapha Mond in chapter 17 has a lot of heady stuff. It feels like a modern Book of Ecclesiastes.

The whole book is thought-provoking, but chapter 17 in particular says something to modern society and our desire to constantly entertain ourselves. This is why to me Brave New World is more relevant today than 1984. We've all seen 1984 in real-life, through totalitarian states. Society as a whole rejects categorically the world of 1984. But engineered utopia of Brave New World is a lot closer than we realize, and in mass advertising and relentless consumerism, as a society we show a desire to accept it as devastating as it is to individualism and broader and nobler concerns.

https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/3204877-brave-new-worl...

Re: 1984 v. Brave New World

#76

Post by driverdan » Thu, Oct 23, 2014, 7:04 PM UTC

Animats wrote: post #70

netcan wrote: post #22

These are two giants in science fiction, in political philosophy and in pop culture. I'm a big fan of both. Great to read a discussion between them. First, there's the artistic stele of the books. 1984 has got this graphic novel, Noir feel to it, like Walking Dead or Sin City. Brave New World has this brightly colored surreal feel to it. It's hard to compare books that are different in this way. Overall, Orwell's wor…

Huxely's mechanisms of Soma, infant conditioning and narco-hypnosis feel less real. Marijuana legalization is Soma. We don't need as many workers any more, and pot will help to keep the drones passive.

I'll assume you don't know any adults who smoke. I know a number of startup founders who do (myself not included) and work their asses off. They are not being passive.

Re: 1984 v. Brave New World

#77

Post by krapp » Thu, Oct 23, 2014, 7:04 PM UTC

Consultant32452 wrote: post #59

krapp wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that's going to happen. No matter now realistic Oculus appears, it's still just a device strapped to your face - it's not that immersive.

Eventually it will just be a pair of contact lenses, or even an ocular implant.

Even then, you're aware of the contacts or the implant, unless you're living in the Matrix and were genetically engineered with a AV jack in your spinal column.

Re: 1984 v. Brave New World

#78

Post by ojbyrne » Thu, Oct 23, 2014, 7:06 PM UTC

netcan wrote: post #22

These are two giants in science fiction, in political philosophy and in pop culture. I'm a big fan of both. Great to read a discussion between them. First, there's the artistic stele of the books. 1984 has got this graphic novel, Noir feel to it, like Walking Dead or Sin City. Brave New World has this brightly colored surreal feel to it. It's hard to compare books that are different in this way. Overall, Orwell's wor…

Brave New World is satire. It's _supposed_ to be over the top.

Re: 1984 v. Brave New World

#79

Post by lanaius » Thu, Oct 23, 2014, 7:07 PM UTC

netcan wrote: post #22

These are two giants in science fiction, in political philosophy and in pop culture. I'm a big fan of both. Great to read a discussion between them. First, there's the artistic stele of the books. 1984 has got this graphic novel, Noir feel to it, like Walking Dead or Sin City. Brave New World has this brightly colored surreal feel to it. It's hard to compare books that are different in this way. Overall, Orwell's wor…

>it describes how the system must allow some non hereditary class movement. If the class system is too rigid, pressure builds up as talented individual press against the ceiling. If some are allowed to progress and there are prominent examples the class system becomes less explicit and more stable.

Just like Whitman, Price, and Haddad[1]!

[1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLlVa6HjV8k

Re: 1984 v. Brave New World

#80

Post by chillingeffect » Thu, Oct 23, 2014, 7:07 PM UTC

bdkoepke wrote: post #62

netcan wrote: post #22

These are two giants in science fiction, in political philosophy and in pop culture. I'm a big fan of both. Great to read a discussion between them. First, there's the artistic stele of the books. 1984 has got this graphic novel, Noir feel to it, like Walking Dead or Sin City. Brave New World has this brightly colored surreal feel to it. It's hard to compare books that are different in this way. Overall, Orwell's wor…

Brave New World is already here to some extent largely due to the work of Freud and his nephew Edward Bernays. The excellent documentary "The Century of the Self" explains this better than I ever could: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Century_of_the_Self . Overview from Wikipedia: "This series is about how those in power have used Freud's theories to try and control the dangerous crowd in an age of mass democracy."…

Upvoted for Century of Self. Everyone in the industrialized world should watch it.

Although I will add that Freud's theories are only one part of it. The documentary really exposes a vast plethora of social control techniques.