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1984 v. Brave New World

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Re: 1984 v. Brave New World

#61
post #13

I never quite understood was was 'dystopian' about Brave New World. A world in which everybody is happy and content with who they are and the circumstances they live in, how is that dystopian? He threw in some bad things (the people in the reserves, the people who didn't take their meds, the 'conditioning' of the children) but never really justified why they'd be necessary. All of them (and the 'orgy-porgies') were,…

>> A world in which everybody is happy and content with who they are and the circumstances they live in, how is that dystopian?

In his book The Man's Search for Meaning, Holocaust survivor Victor Frankl made the case that "happiness cannot be pursued; it must ensue." He said that one can't simply be happy. Rather, they must have a reason to be happy.

This article does a great job of summarizing his philosophy and relating it to the current state of our society: http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/01/theres-m...

Re: 1984 v. Brave New World

#62
post #22

These are two giants in science fiction, in political philosophy and in pop culture. I'm a big fan of both. Great to read a discussion between them. First, there's the artistic stele of the books. 1984 has got this graphic novel, Noir feel to it, like Walking Dead or Sin City. Brave New World has this brightly colored surreal feel to it. It's hard to compare books that are different in this way. Overall, Orwell's wor…

Brave New World is already here to some extent largely due to the work of Freud and his nephew Edward Bernays. The excellent documentary "The Century of the Self" explains this better than I ever could: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Century_of_the_Self.

Overview from Wikipedia: "This series is about how those in power have used Freud's theories to try and control the dangerous crowd in an age of mass democracy." —Adam Curtis'

Edward Bernays also wrote a book titled Propaganda and he invented the term Public Relations.

From wikipedia:

Edward Louis Bernays was an Austrian-American pioneer in the field of public relations and propaganda, referred to in his obituary as "the father of public relations". He combined the ideas of Gustave Le Bon and Wilfred Trotter on crowd psychology with the psychoanalytical ideas of his uncle, Sigmund Freud. He felt this manipulation was necessary in society, which he regarded as irrational and dangerous as a result of the "herd instinct" that Trotter had described.

In Propaganda he wrote:

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ...We are governed, our minds are moulded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of. This is a logical result of the way in which our democratic society is organized. Vast numbers of human beings must cooperate in this manner if they are to live together as a smoothly functioning society. ...In almost every act of our daily lives, whether in the sphere of politics or business, in our social conduct or our ethical thinking, we are dominated by the relatively small number of persons...who understand the mental processes and social patterns of the masses. It is they who pull the wires which control the public mind."

You don't need to look far to see how hedonism, particularly through television programs like American Idol and ESPN*, have supplanted the laymans need for government involvement. I see no better example of hedonism than the fact that the word 'Selfie' was awarded 'Word of the Year' by the Oxford dictionary last year: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-24992393. I work at Disney and when I look to the television monitors I see ‘inspirational’ quotes that tell me that selfishness is desirable. In particular, I have learned that ’mephobia’ is defined as the 'Fear of becoming so awesome that the human race can't handle it and everyone dies.' Disgusting…

Re: 1984 v. Brave New World

#63
post #31
post #22

These are two giants in science fiction, in political philosophy and in pop culture. I'm a big fan of both. Great to read a discussion between them. First, there's the artistic stele of the books. 1984 has got this graphic novel, Noir feel to it, like Walking Dead or Sin City. Brave New World has this brightly colored surreal feel to it. It's hard to compare books that are different in this way. Overall, Orwell's wor…

See, I'm just the opposite. With as hedonistic as human nature seems to be, it makes perfect sense that the pursuit of happiness leads to nothing but; in other words, A Brave New World. 1984 felt just too dystopian. It just tasted wrong; like someone would have stood up and said, "No thank you" well before the point the book stepped into. A Brave New World? That's simply distraction taken to the nth degree. Perfectly…

>1984 felt just too dystopian. It just tasted wrong; like someone would have stood up and said, "No thank you" well before the point the book stepped into.

Where exactly is that inflection point? So far, we've complained a lot, yet we slide more into it every day, and statistically, no one is leaving.

Re: 1984 v. Brave New World

#64
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Boy oh boy. Well, the thing is it is a society that is completely in thrall to a system of basic pleasure orchestrated with the questionable justification that a life without real pleasure or pain is a better one. The people are oblivious to all art and real achievement, they have no desires and no ambitions, they create nothing and have no desire to, they feel no real emotions and all sex is mechanical, and they hap…

> The people are oblivious to all art and real achievement Or, maybe the people in our real society are oblivious to the peace and happiness experienced in A Brave New World's society. > they have no desires and no ambitions, they create nothing and have no desire to, they feel no real emotions and all sex is mechanical, and they happily march to their own deaths at a certain age. Are any of those differences actuall…

Well, people have been unable to settle on a comprehensive definition of happiness in the few thousand years the argument has been documented so I don't think we'll settle it here. But consider that we identify so many kinds of happiness, from the fleeting to the unforgettable: joy, euphoria, satisfaction, ecstasy, etc. I think Brave New World is about excluding all else in life but one of those. If that sounds good to you, go for it! No one can tell you what happiness is — except that's exactly what the authorities in Brave New World are doing, and they are eliminating the option of pursuing other, perhaps greater happinesses than the one they have chosen for you.

Re: 1984 v. Brave New World

#65
post #53
post #22

These are two giants in science fiction, in political philosophy and in pop culture. I'm a big fan of both. Great to read a discussion between them. First, there's the artistic stele of the books. 1984 has got this graphic novel, Noir feel to it, like Walking Dead or Sin City. Brave New World has this brightly colored surreal feel to it. It's hard to compare books that are different in this way. Overall, Orwell's wor…

A comic that juxtaposes then nicely: http://www.juxtapoz.com/current/huxley-vs-orwell-in-graphic-... I strongly feel that BNW is more realistic. Neither will play out in entirety, but we are certainly addicts of our opioid receptors.

I think BNW is tier 1, first line of defense against control resistance, and 1984 is tier 2, for those that are able to resist the controls of the first tier. The Internet in its original form prevented tier 2 from existing, but it is gradually moving toward becoming controlled.

Re: 1984 v. Brave New World

#66
post #13

I never quite understood was was 'dystopian' about Brave New World. A world in which everybody is happy and content with who they are and the circumstances they live in, how is that dystopian? He threw in some bad things (the people in the reserves, the people who didn't take their meds, the 'conditioning' of the children) but never really justified why they'd be necessary. All of them (and the 'orgy-porgies') were,…

Boy oh boy. Well, the thing is it is a society that is completely in thrall to a system of basic pleasure orchestrated with the questionable justification that a life without real pleasure or pain is a better one. The people are oblivious to all art and real achievement, they have no desires and no ambitions, they create nothing and have no desire to, they feel no real emotions and all sex is mechanical, and they hap…

roel_v for one embraces his new Huxlonian overlords with open arms!

Re: 1984 v. Brave New World

#67

Neil Postman's book Amusing Ourselves to Death is a great continuation of this topic. I only wish they were still around to see how right they were.

Good point. It's an excellent book.

I also thought of Mark Crispin Miller's re-vision of the parallels between Orwell's 1984 and TV advertising culture, in his essay, "Big Brother is You, Watching" [1]. It's a long essay but it is very insightful on the current significance of Orwell's book. Just substitute "internet" for "TV" and you can update it to today.

[1] http://books.google.com/books?id=Lhsg1ZZ3hMQC&pg=PA331&lpg=P... (and scroll up to the start of the chapter)

Re: 1984 v. Brave New World

#68
post #6

Illustrates it well: http://postimg.org/image/ue0pdq56r/

Wow excellent! I'm always been more drawn to Orwell. But I think this illustrates how we are definitely headed more towards Huxley's vision.

Re: 1984 v. Brave New World

#70
post #22

These are two giants in science fiction, in political philosophy and in pop culture. I'm a big fan of both. Great to read a discussion between them. First, there's the artistic stele of the books. 1984 has got this graphic novel, Noir feel to it, like Walking Dead or Sin City. Brave New World has this brightly colored surreal feel to it. It's hard to compare books that are different in this way. Overall, Orwell's wor…

Huxely's mechanisms of Soma, infant conditioning and narco-hypnosis feel less real.

Marijuana legalization is Soma. We don't need as many workers any more, and pot will help to keep the drones passive.

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