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Ten years of Ubuntu

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Re: Ten years of Ubuntu

#31

Post by Argorak »

maouida wrote: post #25

I tried to switch from Windows to Ubuntu multiple times but I go back to Windows each time. I have mainly 2 issues: - Upgrade to newer version always fails. I'm left with a broken OS at the end. - Although the UI has improved a lot since the early days of Ubuntu, I still don't like it. I know I can customize it but it always causes issues on some apps.

> - Upgrade to newer version always fails. I'm left with a broken OS at the end.

I'm pretty sure that this is an issue of having a more sophisticated package management.

OS X and Windows are basically huge software bundles that are dropped on a drive. They rarely change their internal structure gradually (Windows takes an odd middleground of basically keeping all patches around). It's a well understood process and easy to reason about: copy bunch of data A to location B, make sure it matches a checksum. Ship some parts in double in different versions, to support older versions. All the issues I ever had with that were with all the packages software I handbuilt on top of that.

OSes fully built on packaging software from ground up, e.g. apt, rely on the assumption that the package tree is always problem-free and that you can migrate any custom evolution of that tree to a new standard version. While this works formidably for smaller changes (I just want to add a package), where the potential breakage is contained to a rather limited set of packages, possibly close to the leafs of the tree, this gets problematic if you want to change a package on the top of the tree.

I think this gives a lot of power to the approach of immutable machines, combining both approaches: fine-grained dependency-tracking and resolution, while avoiding the evolutionary problems by always rebuilding the system from ground up on any change.

FWIW: I love a proper package management. But I don't believe in its infallibility.

Re: Ten years of Ubuntu

#32

Post by w1ntermute »

latch wrote: post #19
hpaavola wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Asus Zenbook UX* line. Only thing that does not work out of the box with Ubuntu is ambient light sensor. Light, powerful, good (not awesome) battery life (4-5 hours), excellent display, ... Also Lenovo X1 Carbon, but the latest model comes with dumbest keyboard ever.

Battery's important. I'm aware of the keyboard issue on the Carbon. It worries me that they still have trackpad and keyboard issues in 2014. The X1 isn't the only one.

It's not a matter of "still" - the original X1 Carbon was fine. Lenovo fucked up on the second iteration.

Re: Ten years of Ubuntu

#33

Post by m_mueller »

broodbucket wrote: post #13
latch wrote: post #11

There's gotta be a lot of OSX users like me who'd switch in a heartbeat given better laptop options. I know they're getting better, but it still isn't that close.

This isn't entirely their fault. There are quite a few Macbook components that are closed source and don't even function correctly in Windows.

I think he means any laptop, period, not just Ubuntu running on a Macbook. Once you're used to having a POSIX OS that's pretty much perfectly integrated on a device with 16GB+, HiDPI display and extremely good touchpad, it's just hard to settle for Ubuntu on a Dell/HP/Lenovo IMO. So far i couldn't find anything that matches Retina display quality (including software support, which is just as important as the hardware). If I could, I'd probably switch to Linux as well.

Re: Ten years of Ubuntu

#34

Post by sampo »

latch wrote: post #11

There's gotta be a lot of OSX users like me who'd switch in a heartbeat given better laptop options. I know they're getting better, but it still isn't that close.

> better laptop options

I use Ubuntu on a HP EliteBook Folio 1040. It's relatively nice hardware. The touchpad cannot really do middle click, but I always use external mouse, so I don't care.

I am sure ThinkPad T440s would be a nice machine, too.

Re: Ten years of Ubuntu

#35

Post by waterlesscloud »

latch wrote: post #11

There's gotta be a lot of OSX users like me who'd switch in a heartbeat given better laptop options. I know they're getting better, but it still isn't that close.

Eh. I use both on a very regular basis, for years. Ubuntu on my netbook and OSX on my desktop.

OSX is just a slicker environment. If I wasn't committed to a tiny form factor with my netbook, I'd go all Apple products.

Re: Ten years of Ubuntu

#36

Post by simonh »

latch wrote: post #11

There's gotta be a lot of OSX users like me who'd switch in a heartbeat given better laptop options. I know they're getting better, but it still isn't that close.

I ditched Windows back in 2006 and it was a close run thing between Ubuntu and OSX, but I had just started a family and the combination of iPhoto and iMovie was a big draw to OSX. Also, again due to above said family, I didn't have the time to spend tinkering and configuring things. I needed something that worked right out of the box, and would keep working. That machine finally packed in a few months ago and time machine backups saved my arse twice in that time.

Back in 2006 Linux on the desktop looked like it might eventually break through and become a mainstream option. Now I don't think so. The commercial desktop OSes, particularly OSX, are pulling ahead technologically in ways Linux can't match fast enough to stay relevent. Apple can do in one or two yearly updates what would take a Linux distro 5 years or more to match. The main opening is against Windows, which is struggling to get back to providing a useable basic desktop. Yet even with MS shooting their own feet off every other release, the Linux desktop still isnt getting any mainstream traction.

It's really very depressing. I remember 2009 being declared the year of the Linux desktop. 15 years later that looks as far away from coming true as ever. I might have to buy a retina iMac to cheer myself up.

Re: Ten years of Ubuntu

#37

Post by eloisant »

What I really loved in Ubuntu is that they were the first distribution that really considered itself an OS, not "a way to install Linux" and make choices about what it should include.

All the other distributions started by asking whether you wanted KDE or Gnome, Abiword or OpenOffice, and ended up installing a bunch of software you may or may not want "just in case". Ubuntu made choices, if you didn't like it you could always change it later on or use a different distribution but you had a consistent OS to start with.

Re: Ten years of Ubuntu

#38

Post by yochaigal »

latch wrote: post #19
hpaavola wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Asus Zenbook UX* line. Only thing that does not work out of the box with Ubuntu is ambient light sensor. Light, powerful, good (not awesome) battery life (4-5 hours), excellent display, ... Also Lenovo X1 Carbon, but the latest model comes with dumbest keyboard ever.

Battery's important. I'm aware of the keyboard issue on the Carbon. It worries me that they still have trackpad and keyboard issues in 2014. The X1 isn't the only one.

They keyboard sucks because of design, not Linux - see:

http://cdn.gottabemobile.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Thin...

I love my 1st gen; it's really depressing that they did this.

Re: Ten years of Ubuntu

#39

Post by danbee »

Ubuntu got popular during the 3 year period between Debian Woody and Sarge. I think many Debian users jumped ship because they got bored of waiting for a new release so a new distro that was basically Debian but up to date was welcome.

The joke around that time was that Debian was either obsolete or unstable.

Re: Ten years of Ubuntu

#40

Post by liotier »

davidw wrote: post #21
johnchristopher wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

May I ask what you are missing from Debian as a desktop ? I went from Ubuntu minimal to Debian (stable, nonetheless),tiling wm for me, gnome for friends and guests, and found Debian easier to maintain (for me and my friends whose computers I manage). I must say I feel Debian's desktop experience is really top notch and crosses all the check marks of what a desktop is supposed to do (for me at least) and so I don't re…

> May I ask what you are missing from Debian as a desktop ? When I switched, Debian was in the process of taking 3 years to go from woody to sarge. After that it would be another 5 before etch. I'm sure Debian makes a fine desktop these days. I could definitely see switching back at some point. I do like that there is someone who takes decisions Ubuntu; I think that streamlines things in some ways. Debian can get int…

I went down the same path when Ubuntu's appearance suddenly made Debian look slow and outdated. Now I have been back on Debian for a few years and it just feels better - Debian has come a long way... I believe that Ubuntu's mere existence gave it a good jolt !
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