When Women Stopped Coding • Hacker News Board

Re: When Women Stopped Coding

#21

Post by inmygarage » Tue, Oct 21, 2014, 9:29 PM UTC

I am a female born in 1983 and have always been deeply interested in computers, but have nonetheless felt inexplicably out of place for it. I was in advanced math classes my entire life and placed out of calculus in college. I took a summer programming class at a different university in 2000 and fell in love with programming. But when I got back to school, I took another CS class that was exactly as described in this article. I can't quite articulate the feelings of isolation and frustration I felt in that class, but they were strong enough to drive me away from CS and engineering for a long time.

I have a History degree.

Re: When Women Stopped Coding

#22

Post by zxcv731 » Tue, Oct 21, 2014, 9:30 PM UTC

3rd3 wrote: post #15

zxcv731 wrote: post #14

This same graph used in the article was extensively discussed on reddit 3 days ago. [1] I want to quote some of the comments, which I think is extremely important to this discussion. " The far simpler answer is that the 1970's "explosion" of women into the (purported) field of "computer science" was largely women obtaining degrees in (what were then "computer science" courses) the subfields of "Data Processing" and l…

Sigh, not this comment again.

I initially was quite annoyed by the tone of the comment.

But purely looking at the facts, is this factually true?

I don't have data that supports one way or another way. Looking at the comments, no one was able to dispute the claim and some other people also echoed that data entry was in fact a subfield of computer science.

Re: When Women Stopped Coding

#23

Post by brandonmenc » Tue, Oct 21, 2014, 9:30 PM UTC

guyzero wrote: post #4

brandonmenc wrote: post #3

> And these toys were marketed almost entirely to men and boys. They give two piddly links to commercials aimed at boys. Explain these ads, then: http://minotaurproject.co.uk/blog/?p=342 Or Commodore ads like this one: http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/1325832/commodore-765.jpg In the 80s, computers were marketed to the whole family, boys and girls included.

Were you there? I was. Computers were marketed to boys and families for whatever reason reinforced this as well. It may not explain everything, but it explains the genesis of the situation.

I was born in the 1970s so yeah, I was there.

The article implies that, in the 80s, home computers were considered nothing more than glorified pong machines and girls were never seen in any of the ads, which is simply incorrect.

There are countless ads featuring Commodores, Apples, and Trash 80s displaying spreadsheets, and quite a few with girls at the keyboard.

Is there an exhaustive study of computer marketing from that time? I ask in all seriousness, because two links and hazy memories from NPR isn't very convincing.

Re: When Women Stopped Coding

#24

Post by jamesaguilar » Tue, Oct 21, 2014, 9:30 PM UTC

zxcv731 wrote: post #14

This same graph used in the article was extensively discussed on reddit 3 days ago. [1] I want to quote some of the comments, which I think is extremely important to this discussion. " The far simpler answer is that the 1970's "explosion" of women into the (purported) field of "computer science" was largely women obtaining degrees in (what were then "computer science" courses) the subfields of "Data Processing" and l…

The views in that comment are completely unsubstantiated. There was no evidence presented that "data processing" was ever taught as part of or categorized as computer science. In fact, later comments debunk that viewpoint. Also worth noting that the person who wrote that subscribes to the Men Going Their Own Way movement [1] (his username is thrownaway_MGTOW), which while not an outright debunking of his claims, should give you further cause for suspicion.

[1] http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Men_Going_Their_Own_Way

Re: When Women Stopped Coding

#25

Post by 3rd3 » Tue, Oct 21, 2014, 9:30 PM UTC

nathan_long wrote: post #2

This story makes a compelling case that women stopped programming because - 1. Computers started being sold as consumer products - 2. They were marketed almost exclusively to boys - 3. Boys played with computers and learned about them, while girls were made to feel that computers weren't for them - 3. Men showed up to college with more computer experience - 4. Women felt they must not be "naturally good" at computers…

This seems to miss an explanation for why the marketing was directed at boys in the first place.

Re: When Women Stopped Coding

#26

Post by zxcv731 » Tue, Oct 21, 2014, 9:31 PM UTC

jcdavis wrote: post #18

zxcv731 wrote: post #14

This same graph used in the article was extensively discussed on reddit 3 days ago. [1] I want to quote some of the comments, which I think is extremely important to this discussion. " The far simpler answer is that the 1970's "explosion" of women into the (purported) field of "computer science" was largely women obtaining degrees in (what were then "computer science" courses) the subfields of "Data Processing" and l…

The account that made that comment is a frequent poster in mens rights & friends subreddits, and probably should not be taken without a SUBSTANIAL grain of salt (particularly given the lack of any data to back it up)

I tend to agree that his comments should be taken with a grain of salt. I am curious if anyone here has a more definitive set of data.

Re: When Women Stopped Coding

#27

Post by Dewie » Tue, Oct 21, 2014, 9:31 PM UTC

> Movies like Weird Science, Revenge of the Nerds, and War Games all came out in the '80s. And the plot summaries are almost interchangeable: awkward geek boy genius uses tech savvy to triumph over adversity and win the girl.

Movies like Revenge of the Nerds are not about nerds triumphing over adversity and getting the girls because they are nerds... it's about triumphing over adversity and getting the girls in spite of being nerds. Or, if the key to their success was really their brains, they used it to overcome an adversity that was caused by being nerds. If they weren't being nerdy and brainy, there would be no adversial story to begin with.

To implicitly suggest that movies like that are supposed to inspire people to become and continue to be nerds is asinine. It's a role reversal concept; not something that people believe happens in real life. The whole point is them being unlikely heroes and winners.

> Ordóñez got through the class but earned the first C in her life.

I guess this is supposed to evoke some "hitting a low" sentiment? The sheer horror of getting a grade that is technically right in the middle? Long live grade inflation, I give it an A+++.

Re: When Women Stopped Coding

#28

Post by jamesaguilar » Tue, Oct 21, 2014, 9:31 PM UTC

zxcv731 wrote: post #22

3rd3 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sigh, not this comment again.

I initially was quite annoyed by the tone of the comment. But purely looking at the facts, is this factually true? I don't have data that supports one way or another way. Looking at the comments, no one was able to dispute the claim and some other people also echoed that data entry was in fact a subfield of computer science.

> No one was able to dispute the claim.

There is an invisible soundless fairy unicorn in my room. Please dispute this claim with evidence. Thanks in advance.

Re: When Women Stopped Coding

#29

Post by guyzero » Tue, Oct 21, 2014, 9:31 PM UTC

[deleted] wrote: post #11

guyzero wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Were you there? I was. Computers were marketed to boys and families for whatever reason reinforced this as well. It may not explain everything, but it explains the genesis of the situation.

[deleted]

Edit: uh, something happened with comment parenting, but anyway, yes, not every ad was mono-gendered, but in practice boys monopolized the C64s and TI-99/4As of the world.

It's chicken and egg situation - it was perceived as a "boy thing" so was marketed at boys. The 80's in the US & Canada weren't exactly Saudi Arabia, but toys were as gendered if not more so than they are today. And people marketing computers had no social agenda, they just took the path of least resistance.

It is, on some level, similar to the tragedy of the commons. Everyone made a decision that worked well for them and in the end the net effect was one that had a lot of negative impact.

Re: When Women Stopped Coding

#30

Post by istorical » Tue, Oct 21, 2014, 9:32 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #5

The "women just aren't as interested in programming" trope rings hollow when the participation of women in CS majors is about half of what it was in 1985, a time when, by all accounts, programmers were far less socially mainstream than they are today.

Why? Don't really follow your logic.

My hypothesis is that women (specifically teenage girls) just aren't interested in the field / profession so they decide not to study it in school or search for jobs in the field.

Perhaps this is because they are discouraged from trying it by their teachers or media, perhaps its because they don't have the confidence to believe they'll succeed, perhaps they think it's not cool, perhaps they don't think it'll be a fun job.

But I guess, I see "women aren't as interested in programming" as a very likely cause for the disparity. And I don't think that's a sexist observation. I believe if we can find ways to get more girls interested we should pursue them, and indeed I root for organizations like Black Girls Code.

We live in too politically correct a world if we think it's bad to suggest that maybe girls _aren't_ interested in the field. I'm not sure that it's the biggest contributing factor, but if it could be part of the story, why are we so afraid to admit that possibility? Because it's not something we'd like to believe?