I Hate Puzzles: Am I Still a Programmer? (2011) • Hacker News Board

Re: I Hate Puzzles: Am I Still a Programmer? (2011)

#101

Post by Rooster61 » Tue, Oct 21, 2014, 5:46 PM UTC

I can't help but think this is a perfect example of the contrast between a programmer and a hacker. When I think of those who enjoy puzzles, or more accurately the mental process to solve said puzzles, I think of hackers. A programmer is simply someone who programs.

That's not to say that you can't be a perfectly competent programmer without being a hacker. On the contrary, sometimes, though rarely, hacker traits can be detrimental to programming as a profession. A programmer bitten hard by the hacker bug may become a bit too enamored with a puzzle when going about their work on a given project, and as a result come up with a solution that effectively solves a difficult problem but is a nightmare to effectively maintain, especially when others are doing the maintenance.

Re: I Hate Puzzles: Am I Still a Programmer? (2011)

#102

Post by Smudge » Tue, Oct 21, 2014, 5:47 PM UTC

> Could you please solve this algorithmic puzzle within half an hour? I failed. Hiring decision made. End of story.

If that alone was the reason, then your interviewer did a bad job.

The point isn't to trick you. It's to see how you work under pressure when presented with a tough problem. What is your thought process? Do you dive right in or do you take time to chew on it? What parts of your background can you draw on to help you?

It certainly helps your chances if you can solve the problem, all else being equal, but I'd rather take someone who talks through their work but doesn't quite solve it over someone who solves it yet has trouble explaining how or why.

The best interview questions are layered. There should be a relatively easy solution solvable in multiple ways by anyone with experience programming. It should almost solve itself if you walk through the specifications. (Think fizz-buzz-level.)

But underneath that should one or two harder problems with very elegant solutions. And those are much more about the process -- about weeding out the people who would dive in without really thinking it through. If you make a mess of the whiteboard, get frustrated, start desperately erasing and rewriting the same things without ever stepping back to think through alternatives... well, that might be what I'd hold against you. It's not that you didn't solve it. It's that you didn't prove to me you could've given more time.

Re: I Hate Puzzles: Am I Still a Programmer? (2011)

#103

Post by chavesn » Tue, Oct 21, 2014, 5:49 PM UTC

ChuckMcM wrote: post #97

Silly question of course, anyone who has programmed for 18 years is a programmer. But the missed question is "Am I a hacker[1]?" And it is that which puzzles attempt to ferret out. Let's take the example of the 1000 piece Escher puzzle that the author uses as an excellent example. They are correct that most of the pieces are just 'shades of grey'. Impossible right? If you're a hacker you say "Challenge accepted!" if…

> if you're not you say "This is way more work than its worth." Because what the hacker mentality gets reinforcement from, is overcoming the 'impossible' (or simply the 'you can't do this') not the actual puzzle assembly.

Hmm, up until this, I thought I was a hacker. When I see a problem worth solving, I'll dig in and try different tools that I've never tried before and figure out a way to make it happen. I really resonate with what you said about not being deterred by the problem seeming extremely difficult or having no obvious solutions.

But I actively try not to work on things that are "more work than they are worth". Seeming "impossible" is not enough to me to make it worth. It has to actually provide some benefit.

This is not to say I don't still get carried away and attempt something which really ends up not being worth the time...

Re: I Hate Puzzles: Am I Still a Programmer? (2011)

#104

Post by danschumann » Tue, Oct 21, 2014, 5:49 PM UTC

ksenzee wrote: post #87

danschumann wrote: post #61

Best stick to the shallow end of the pool if you can't swim. Do you program? Then you are a programmer. However, in some circles, where extremely complex problems need to be solved, they would say, " No ", because you can't do any of the programming required, and you'd be as useful to them as a rock, only less useful because you take air and food. I play volleyball occasionally, but if I went to the olympic men's tea…

It would greatly surprise me if a member of the Olympic men's volleyball team said "you don't really play volleyball." People at the top of their field are way more likely to say "that's great! Keep it up!" The same applies in our field. The really great programmers I have known don't play the "you are not a real programmer" game.

Correct, that would be rude. However, they wouldn't put me on their team. It's their right to have tryouts however they want to. As arbitrary as entrance exams seem, they are part of the culture, and if you don't fit in, you don't fit in. Move on, start your own company.

Re: I Hate Puzzles: Am I Still a Programmer? (2011)

#105

Post by R_Edward » Tue, Oct 21, 2014, 5:49 PM UTC

>Four people need to cross a rickety bridge at night. Unfortunately, they have only one torch and the bridge is too dangerous to cross without one. The bridge is only strong enough to support two people at a time. Not all people take the same time to cross the bridge. Times for each person: 1 min, 2 mins, 7 mins and 10 mins. What is the shortest time needed for all four of them to cross the bridge?17 minutes, if you can stipulate that at the beginning of the problem, the 10 minute and 7 minute people are on opposite sides of the bridge, each paired with one of the other two guys.

18 minutes, if they must all start on the same side of the bridge, but there is no requirement for all of them to end up on the opposite side.

This also assumes that person who can cross the bridge in as little as one minute has no problem slowing down to accommodate someone else's slower pace; otherwise there's no real point to trying to share the torch.

Re: I Hate Puzzles: Am I Still a Programmer? (2011)

#106

Post by klibertp » Tue, Oct 21, 2014, 5:50 PM UTC

raverbashing wrote: post #28

delecti wrote: post #11

The problem isn't with him, it's with programmers who have an inflated view of how smart you have to be to be a programmer. There are plenty of smart programmers, and there are plenty of problems that would benefit from smart programmers, but the vast majority of problems just need a spark of creativity and a lot of hard work from a person with a reasonable base of knowledge.

And then people don't know where impostor syndrome come from... With a lot of BS being spewed on the net like "everybody needs to know how to unit test", "everybody should learn how to use Vagrant", "everybody should know Ruby", "knowing the SOLID principles is essential" And then you ask them how to write a regular expression and they fall flat on their face. Or the basics of how to do a Fourier transform. Or how to…

You realize that regexes, fft and canvas APIs can be seen as the same kind of thing - as simply tools - as unit tests, Ruby and SOLID (whatever that is)?

Some tools are usable in more contexts, but you can still lead a perfectly healthy life if you are in a domain where the ones you don't know are not needed.

Re: I Hate Puzzles: Am I Still a Programmer? (2011)

#107

Post by general_failure » Tue, Oct 21, 2014, 5:51 PM UTC

seanflyon wrote: post #75

general_failure wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Algorithms and puzzles are different things. If I asked someone what is an algorithm and they replied 'it's a puzzle where you solve...", I would laugh my ass off.

Algorithms are not puzzles, they are solutions to puzzles.

OK, so it would be ok if an interview someone replied "algorithms are solutions to puzzles" ?

I don't think they are. They are solutions to problems in computer programming. Solving computer programming problems has nothing to do with your aptitude in solving puzzles and brain teasers.

Re: I Hate Puzzles: Am I Still a Programmer? (2011)

#108

Post by maxlybbert » Tue, Oct 21, 2014, 5:51 PM UTC

Dijkstra commented on this multiple times (e.g., https://www.google.com/search?q=dijkstra+puzzle+minded+ewd+s... ).

"I still often hear that a successful programmer should be 'puzzle-minded' whereas I have the feeling that a clear and systematic mind is more essential. A modern, competent programmer should not be puzzle-minded, he should not revel in tricks, he should be humble and avoid clever solutions like the plague" ( https://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/EWD03xx/E... ).

Re: I Hate Puzzles: Am I Still a Programmer? (2011)

#109

Post by nraynaud » Tue, Oct 21, 2014, 5:51 PM UTC

ChuckMcM wrote: post #97

Silly question of course, anyone who has programmed for 18 years is a programmer. But the missed question is "Am I a hacker[1]?" And it is that which puzzles attempt to ferret out. Let's take the example of the 1000 piece Escher puzzle that the author uses as an excellent example. They are correct that most of the pieces are just 'shades of grey'. Impossible right? If you're a hacker you say "Challenge accepted!" if…

I consider myself a hacker, but I still try to manage my time and chose my fights. And I'm still way too much side tracked. There is absolutely no knowledge to be gained from completing the puzzle. You'll just train a bit your geometric pattern recognition, do you really want to invest days in that? If you're more in breadth than depth, then you can answer "no" without any shame, and just go learn something new. What if one day you need a good eye in pattern recognition? well the skill will itself increase with practice.

The only other reason could be the social aspect of intellectually interacting with is wife for long stretches of time, and it's in their couple to decide how to do that.

Re: I Hate Puzzles: Am I Still a Programmer? (2011)

#110

Post by vonmoltke » Tue, Oct 21, 2014, 5:52 PM UTC

MCRed wrote: post #79

This is a feature not a bug-- let me explain: Recruiting is not necessarily easy. But you can judge a company by how they recruit people. Their hiring process-- given that talent is so critical-- tells you a great deal about the company. If they do a terrible job, if they are arbitrary or capricious, or if they have discrimination as a policy (e.g.: I was in the room at Startup School when Zuckerberg said "don't hire…

> Asking for references. First off this is a legal minefield. A reference that isn't glowing is going to open themselves up to liability. Any well run business is only going to say you worked there for some period of time. And who is going to give people they think will give a bad reference? This one shows naivety.

I recently stumbled across two research-oriented companies that demanded references as a condition of reviewing your resume. I can't believe they get very many good candidates with a borderline offensive requirement like that.