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Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

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Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#291

If you are 35+ and technically savvy you really ought to consider launching your own business online. By far the best program I've seen that takes people from newbies to online business owners is here: www.ProjectAmericanDream.com Full disclosure: I am an investor and know dozens of people doing the program, friends and family members. Most successfully. Older programmers have lots of challenges. Being good has nothi…

Spot on. Building networks is key. A software developers role tend to involve a lot of time alone, and this counts against long term career development. In particular, meeting time is often treated as bad time while writing code is valued. In reality, a programmer needs to divide time between executing and saving up some human capital for the future.

I have been going around doing interviews because I did not network enough and my contracting/freelancing work dried up. What they are looking for in a senior developer is the ability to lead teams, improve collaboration, code quality. I'm in my 40s and I can absolutely believe that 50+ people can have serious difficulties securing the right position.

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct. Also, engineers are promoted "confirmationally" (meaning, after they're performing at level X) and managers are promoted "aspirationally" (when people think they should be able to reach level X). Google prides itself on promoting only confirmationally, and engineers like it that way because it's more meritocratic. The problem is that product people and management still get aspirational promotion, and that's…

Product people and management - at least at Google - are still promoted confirmationally - you get formal management responsibilities when you've been a tech lead for a year or two and have exhibited the qualities (concern for other peoples' careers, ability to delegate, humility, emotional stability, ability to see multiple perspectives, commitment to Google and its values) that Google wants to see in its managers.

Confirmational promotion may be true for the first leap into the management ladder, but not after that. Aspirational promotion makes sense for management, since it's really about social status rather than achievement anyway.

concern for other peoples' careers, ability to delegate, humility, emotional stability, ability to see multiple perspectives, commitment to Google and its values

You don't really see these among the people in power. Stack ranking? Secret "calibration scores"? Closed allocation? Blind allocation? People getting PIP'd for having 20% Time projects?

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Product people and management - at least at Google - are still promoted confirmationally - you get formal management responsibilities when you've been a tech lead for a year or two and have exhibited the qualities (concern for other peoples' careers, ability to delegate, humility, emotional stability, ability to see multiple perspectives, commitment to Google and its values) that Google wants to see in its managers.

Confirmational promotion may be true for the first leap into the management ladder, but not after that. Aspirational promotion makes sense for management, since it's really about social status rather than achievement anyway. concern for other peoples' careers, ability to delegate, humility, emotional stability, ability to see multiple perspectives, commitment to Google and its values You don't really see these among…

It's interesting how you and I can see the same facts and interpret them completely differently, perhaps because I know the reason for these practices and also don't have an axe to grind about how they've personally affected me.

Stack ranking is there to smooth out mistakes in your manager's judgment. One of the big problems I saw in the promo process is that people who quietly help out a lot of other people but don't work on their manager's pet projects will get overlooked by their manager at promo & calibration time. Stack ranking is there to counteract this: if you have helped out lots of teams, you will appear high on many other peoples' stack ranks, sometimes even higher than your manager, and promo committees take this into account when considering promotions of people who don't have their managers' blessing. And it generally works, too: I was promoted on the strength of peer recommendations (I had quite low calibration scores, largely because I've never really cared what my manager thought of me), and I know several other friends who were as well.

Calibration scores are there to prevent the problem where a manager games the promo system by giving super-awesome assessments to all of his reports. He has every incentive to do this: it raises his own prestige within the organization to have a "super high performing" team (even if it's only high-performing because he set the goalposts low), and engenders loyalty from his reports. Calibration forces him to justify his scores to his peers, all of whom have an incentive to inflate their own reports' scores relative to him.

Closed allocation does suck, but in my experience Google didn't actually have closed allocation. If you had a solid track record and a team willing to accept you it was remarkably easy to transfer to a different department.

Blind allocation is a consequence of Google's "hire for the company, not for the team" practice, which is a way to prevent empire-building and keep the hiring bar high. When teams do their own hiring, every manager has an incentive to take a marginal candidate, because his team is probably overworked, and one mediocre employee is better than zero employees. Over time, this would make the whole company mediocre, which is why Google has instituted a uniform hiring bar across the company. Blind allocation is an unfortunate side-effect of this; most people would rather know which team they're going to (actually, if you're in demand by multiple teams, you can get this - I spoke on the phone with my eventual manager before accepting my offer letter), but that's hard when you're not interviewing with one particular team.

I have never seen anyone get PIP'd for having a 20% time project, and I had like a dozen 20% projects during my time at Google, one of which became a major open-source project (and ultimately consumed like 50% of my time). I have seen people get PIP'd for not doing any useful work on their main project, but that's because you're hired to do a job and you better do it.

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#294
post #23

59, programming for 42 years, the last 35 professionally. Here on HN for 7.5 years. I've always been very busy (one of the main reasons I don't post on HN as much any more). I don't have a resume. I'm not on LinkedIn. If I ever ran low on work, it would probably take me a day or two and a few phone calls to find something. I don't work on anything unless I find it incredibly compelling. I write applications. I've see…

Why is this comment getting upvoted? It's pretty insulting and arrogant to paint a massive swathe of our community as stupid, unambitious people who never progressed past hello world. Let's remember that in those 42 years the number of BASIC, FORTRAN, or COBOL jobs has diminished through to almost nothing. The last person I met who described themselves as a COBOL programmer was about 10 years ago, and even they said…

Let's remember that in those 42 years the number of BASIC, FORTRAN, or COBOL jobs has diminished through to almost nothing. The last person I met who described themselves as a COBOL programmer was about 10 years ago, and even they said they did it for the money as there were so few of them left.

They haven't really diminished to almost nothing, they have just been outsourced to Indian shops. You'll have a really hard time finding Westerners who still write those languages, but Indian firms are happy to step in and fill that void, maintaining the hundreds of millions of lines of COBOL code still in production at Fortune 500 companies, on a contract basis.

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#295
post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right now there is a firehouse of job offers from recruiters on linkedin, and all a good developer has to do to find work is take a drink from that firehose. While I enjoy the current situation, it's unlikely to last. Sometimes we forget that there's plenty of people who have simply built up a clientele and a repuation through plain old networking. These jobs tend to be more lucrative and probably don't require you t…

Having tried to drink from the firehose in the past, I can say that I have never once had a recruiter lead actually result in a job offer. It's one gigantic catch-22. The companies themselves aren't great at hiring, or they wouldn't need to use recruiters doing semi-random searches on linkedin. If you yourself were any good at interviewing, you wouldn't need to rely on the recruiters either. You're an unqualified lea…

I think you're very wrong here. In-house recruiters also use Linkedin, I don't know why that would put anybody in the "high risk hire" category. I got my recent job through a recruiter contact on Linkedin and I'm pretty happy about it.

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#296
post #291

If you are 35+ and technically savvy you really ought to consider launching your own business online. By far the best program I've seen that takes people from newbies to online business owners is here: www.ProjectAmericanDream.com Full disclosure: I am an investor and know dozens of people doing the program, friends and family members. Most successfully. Older programmers have lots of challenges. Being good has nothi…

Spot on. Building networks is key. A software developers role tend to involve a lot of time alone, and this counts against long term career development. In particular, meeting time is often treated as bad time while writing code is valued. In reality, a programmer needs to divide time between executing and saving up some human capital for the future. I have been going around doing interviews because I did not network…

Right. If it is true that kids are getting out of school barely being able to program their way out of a paper bag it is really astounding to me that startups are not actively seeking programmers with ten or more years of experience to get things done. At the very least there has to be room there for some kind of a consulting position to guide away from bad decisions.

Of course, there are people so set in their ways that they simply refuse to keep up with technology. We are not talking about that group here, least I don't think so.

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm 47* and I've been around a bit (dotcom era startups to banking and telecoms) and I'm familiar with the 75% mentioned. There is a type of programmer that works away in blue chips turning up to work on time, doing what's asked of them and then knocking off at half five. Sure they maybe repeat the same one year's experience year after year perhaps with some technology transitioning years from COBOL to VB to VB.NET o…

"It might not be as exciting as the seat of your pants local startup but it pays the mortgage and provides reasonable financial security." I'm skeptical of the "financial security" claim. Obviously this is not true in the U.S., where there is zero hesitancy to lay people off and very rare to have legal recourse as an employee when laid off. But even working in the U.K. or other nations with stronger worker protection…

> I'm skeptical of the "financial security" claim.

I guess it depends on how you define 'reasonable financial security'. As someone in the US, I define financial security as having a couple month's pay in the bank, and a retirement plan of some sort, while making enough money every month to pay the mortgage and the bills and have some left over to spend on entertainment, then it is doable, even in the US.

A mediocre developer who has a bit of experience, making $75k/yr anywhere but San Francisco or New York, could afford to be in the situation I describe.

What does 'reasonable financial security' look like elsewhere?

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#298
post #167
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I build cool stuff, I have kept up to date on new technologies, and languages. But I don't have a big network of people who "need a website" and I don't build websites, so I don't have people constantly calling me offering me work. That doesn't make me someone who has "done the same job for 30 years". My skill is not marketing my skills on a freelance basis. My skill is in engineering.. and a variety of others (like…

I am finding a bit difficult to understand the "I am not good at networking" angle. Assuming a job change every 3 years, and 2 people to vouch for you at each, one would have a 10 people "marketing team" after 15 years. I am not talking about schmoozing with higher ups here; just impressing peers with the quality of work. Am I missing something?

Yes. I"m 48, and I've worked in software for 26 years.

For two companies.

I think I'm probably the last generation that looks at long-term employment as a good thing, and the older I get the less risk I want to take in being "the new kid" who would be the first to go if anything went wrong with the company.

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right now there is a firehouse of job offers from recruiters on linkedin, and all a good developer has to do to find work is take a drink from that firehose. While I enjoy the current situation, it's unlikely to last. Sometimes we forget that there's plenty of people who have simply built up a clientele and a repuation through plain old networking. These jobs tend to be more lucrative and probably don't require you t…

If you're an older tech worker, for the most part, LinkedIn is just a firehose of crap. At worst, it's: Hi, I see you're doing [JOB] at [COMPANY]. How would you like to do [JOB minus 4] at [COMPANY minus 2]? We have Beer Thursdays and your fellow employees will all be young enough to be your sons (and yes, they're all male). And at best it's: Hi, I see you're doing [JOB] at [COMPANY]. How would you like to do the sam…

THIS. oh a THOUSAND times this.

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#300
post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right now there is a firehouse of job offers from recruiters on linkedin, and all a good developer has to do to find work is take a drink from that firehose. While I enjoy the current situation, it's unlikely to last. Sometimes we forget that there's plenty of people who have simply built up a clientele and a repuation through plain old networking. These jobs tend to be more lucrative and probably don't require you t…

Having tried to drink from the firehose in the past, I can say that I have never once had a recruiter lead actually result in a job offer. It's one gigantic catch-22. The companies themselves aren't great at hiring, or they wouldn't need to use recruiters doing semi-random searches on linkedin. If you yourself were any good at interviewing, you wouldn't need to rely on the recruiters either. You're an unqualified lea…

"I have never once had a recruiter lead actually result in a job offer."

I once had a recruiter (he had my resume) contact me for a Novell admin position. And there was nothing related to Novell on my resume. Then I knew not to waste time with 'recruiters'.

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