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Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

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Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#261

Post by jimbokun »

teh_klev wrote: post #80
31reasons wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>75% - one year's experience 30 times, not 30 years experience. You don't want these people. You are basically saying 75% of the developers after certain age are useless. I don't agree or disagree with your statement . Just startled. What does it say about software development as a career ? Would you say the same thing for lawyers or doctors with 30 years experience? This is depressing.

I'm 47* and I've been around a bit (dotcom era startups to banking and telecoms) and I'm familiar with the 75% mentioned. There is a type of programmer that works away in blue chips turning up to work on time, doing what's asked of them and then knocking off at half five. Sure they maybe repeat the same one year's experience year after year perhaps with some technology transitioning years from COBOL to VB to VB.NET o…

"It might not be as exciting as the seat of your pants local startup but it pays the mortgage and provides reasonable financial security."

I'm skeptical of the "financial security" claim. Obviously this is not true in the U.S., where there is zero hesitancy to lay people off and very rare to have legal recourse as an employee when laid off.

But even working in the U.K. or other nations with stronger worker protections, you are still vulnerable to your employer hitting hard times. Companies can very quickly go from profitable to out of business or close to it, especially where technology is involved. Not having skills applicable outside of your current job does not seem like a secure strategy.

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#262

Post by mattfrommars »

cjslep wrote: post #115
mattfrommars wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did my mechanical engineering and having a pain in finding a job. I'm planning to get into programming. What do I need to do to become a decent developer who is in demand and can earn decent money?

I graduated with a BS in nuclear engineering (which at NCSU is very close to a mechanical engineering degree). I now work the computational engineering angle, working both the CS and engineering model side of things. I can show what I did, but I don't have a singular piece of advice that can act as a silver bullet. - I was formally educated in FORTRAN up 'til the 95 spec. Many engineering codes still exist in it, so…

The jobs you got, did they require you to program or did you learn the languages on your own?

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#263

Post by whomer »

unoti wrote: post #236

I'm 46, I programmed a computer for the first time when I was 10, back when Pong was starting to wane and the Atari 2600 was starting to get big. I've been programming continuously since then for 36 years. It's been challenging me to stay with it that long, and most people I've known have dropped out for these reasons: 1.) Developers get comfortable with a given technology, and eventually stop learning. And the longe…

I totally agree. I am 59 years old and have been developing software since 1984. I spent over 17 years with a company writing chemical searching applications in C. It was always stimulating and enjoyable. The company was aquired by a venture capital firm that laid off most of the senior developers to cut costs. I had worked for a while as a manager too. I have had to teach myself new technologies I have moved from C to Java and Clojure, from Oracle to Cassandra and Solr. To succeed long term as a developer you must love to learn new technologies.

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#264

Post by mattfrommars »

bglazer wrote: post #250
etrevino wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well shit. I start a new job working on it ... on Monday. Any suggestions for books on it? They're training me, but the more I can learn on my own, the better.

I'm mostly self-trained. That's probably a part of the problem. The utterly broken way that my team decided to build the reports probably doesn't help either. Sorry, no suggestions for books. Do you know if you'll be working with Crystal Reports? Or directly with the Business Objects API? Either way they're both very, very poorly designed and implemented. Good luck I hope you're getting paid well.

How long will it take to become proficient enough in SAP Business Objects which can get you hired? If entirely self taught

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#265

Post by sliverstorm »

vonmoltke wrote: post #252
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quit overthinking it an go for coffee already! They know people; they hear about projects you don't; pick their brains. They will be glad to help, because they obviously are NOT interested in leaving their current job so you're no competition.

That might work if my former employer was not a defense contractor. Unfortunately, I left in large part because my co-workers seemed to have little clue as to what was going on outside their own little bubble and little interest in correcting that.

That's a perfectly fine reason for leaving, but you're the one who wants/needs help, so it could serve you well to temporarily drop the judgments & assumptions, and just give a few of said ex-coworkers a try.

If it turns out none of them can help you, you're out an hour or two and the cost of coffee.

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#266

Post by sliverstorm »

zeratul wrote: post #45
edw519 wrote: post #23

59, programming for 42 years, the last 35 professionally. Here on HN for 7.5 years. I've always been very busy (one of the main reasons I don't post on HN as much any more). I don't have a resume. I'm not on LinkedIn. If I ever ran low on work, it would probably take me a day or two and a few phone calls to find something. I don't work on anything unless I find it incredibly compelling. I write applications. I've see…

I think no one is like Ed. There maybe be 25% of programmers that have a long standing experience, even with the new tools, but they don't share wisdom like Ed does. Ed why can't you have your own company? Why can't you be the one who is hiring or at least teach others how to hire. I bet you can smell a talent from 1000 miles away - even if someone did not finish a good school; the world of software engineering would…

I think no one is like Ed

That seems highly unrealistic.

- What are the odds HN would attract and recognize a one-in-seven-billion individual? HN is not THAT special.

- You believe Ed holds great wisdom, and it is Ed himself telling you he is not the only one.

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#268

Post by logfromblammo »

brational wrote: post #248
logfromblammo wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone who is employed "at will" should always be looking. If your company has merged, been acquired, or acquired another company within the last 2 years, you should be looking. If you do not get at least a 2% raise every year, without fail, you should be looking. If your vacation and sick pay recently went to PTO instead, you should be looking. If your company is pushing "consumer directed" health insurance at you…

> If your vacation and sick pay recently went to PTO instead, you should be looking. Can you explain this one? I don't even come close to using my sick time up. I'd much rather have them give it as one giant PTO bucket (unless you're implying PTO is less in total than vacation + sick).

Depending in the laws of your locale, an employer may be required to pay for an employee's vacation balance. PTO was formulated primarily to evade this restriction and to provide the means to reduce the company's accounting liabilities. While it was sold to you on the basis of flexibility, it really is a significant reduction in your benefits.

Think about how salary works. If you work as an exempt salaried employee even one minute during any given week, you are supposed to be paid for the whole week. That is why vacation time used to be granted as an integral number of weeks. Converting weeks of vacation into hours of paid time off is simply another step on the slippery slope to treating some salaried workers like wage workers, without any of the additional rights or protections.

Also, anecdotally speaking, every time I have experienced the conversion (3 times), new PTO total has been less than old vacation + sick, and it has always resulted in fewer actual days spent on vacation. The PTO conversion is always the company trying to cut benefit costs quietly without triggering a mass exodus.

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#269

Post by nostrademons »

michaelochurch wrote: post #88
PeterisP wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, if I look at tech field as a whole, it seems quite realistic that there are 10000 more VP-level positions across the many companies than the Fellow-level positions, of which 99% of companies don't have any at all. My home city likely has thousands of software-related VP's, but has 0 Fellow-like positions, they're very uncommon globally. Quite literally. If I want to be a manager of a sizeable bunch of progr…

Correct. Also, engineers are promoted "confirmationally" (meaning, after they're performing at level X) and managers are promoted "aspirationally" (when people think they should be able to reach level X). Google prides itself on promoting only confirmationally, and engineers like it that way because it's more meritocratic. The problem is that product people and management still get aspirational promotion, and that's…

Product people and management - at least at Google - are still promoted confirmationally - you get formal management responsibilities when you've been a tech lead for a year or two and have exhibited the qualities (concern for other peoples' careers, ability to delegate, humility, emotional stability, ability to see multiple perspectives, commitment to Google and its values) that Google wants to see in its managers.

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#270

Post by gcv »

Someone in Silicon Valley, a respected and very smart middle-aged CEO of a well-funded startup, once said to me that programmers over 45 either become CTOs or they probably aren't very good (and therefore not worth hiring).

A generalization, to be sure, but it fits with edw519's view of 75% of middle-aged programmers in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8481761.

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