Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm 47* and I've been around a bit (dotcom era startups to banking and telecoms) and I'm familiar with the 75% mentioned. There is a type of programmer that works away in blue chips turning up to work on time, doing what's asked of them and then knocking off at half five. Sure they maybe repeat the same one year's experience year after year perhaps with some technology transitioning years from COBOL to VB to VB.NET o…
>> It's just a job I can understand this mentality, but cannot sympathize with it. Personally, I refuse to treat my job as "just a job." I want it to mean something. I want to look forward to coming to work everyday. I want to feel like the work I do makes a difference, as opposed to fizzle out and die in the massive corporate bureaucracy. I hate the idea that I'm just spinning my wheels, looking busy, collecting a p…
Career planning: Where do old devs go to?
231–240 of 326 posts
Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?
#232Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why is this comment getting upvoted? It's pretty insulting and arrogant to paint a massive swathe of our community as stupid, unambitious people who never progressed past hello world. Let's remember that in those 42 years the number of BASIC, FORTRAN, or COBOL jobs has diminished through to almost nothing. The last person I met who described themselves as a COBOL programmer was about 10 years ago, and even they said…
I felt the same, but I've come to realize that the comment you take issue with perfectly encapsulates the tech industry. A no holds barred race to the bottom. That's why work conditions, salary, stability and prestige are nowhere near comparable industries such as finance, heavy engineering, medicine, law, etc. Something about programmers makes them think they are all the destined one true hero, and as a result, prog…
Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?
#233I'm 53 with an EE degree, went to programming because it so happened that there was a telecommunications research center close by the school. And programming looked cooler and easier than EE. I compare programming to writing, more than engineering. There is no engineering in programming. No matter how many "methodologies" are created, writing good programs and good systems is akin to writing a good story or a good bo…
"There is no engineering in programming." It really depends on the industry and context. Part of me really envies you if you can say that much and that reflects your experience. I spent most of today making sure that my SPMP, SQAP, SCMP, SRS, etc... documents conform to the relevant IEEE standard. If none of these acronyms means anything to you, again, I envy you.
SQAP - Software Quality Assurance Plan?
SCMP - Software Configuration Management Plan?
SRS - Software Requirements Specification?
I've seen "engineering" defined as "statics, dynamics, and thermodynamics", but what you've listed sounds much more like engineering to me.
Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?
#234I'm 53 with an EE degree, went to programming because it so happened that there was a telecommunications research center close by the school. And programming looked cooler and easier than EE. I compare programming to writing, more than engineering. There is no engineering in programming. No matter how many "methodologies" are created, writing good programs and good systems is akin to writing a good story or a good bo…
I myself have done web, mobile apps, mobile games, console and PC games, systems programming, database programming and even incorporated my own business. I've done these with open source stacks and Microsoft stacks.
It's all fun in the end, if you have something challenging for me to work on, a new tool and or a new medium I'm all ears, please contact me....I'm 39.
Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?
#23559, programming for 42 years, the last 35 professionally. Here on HN for 7.5 years. I've always been very busy (one of the main reasons I don't post on HN as much any more). I don't have a resume. I'm not on LinkedIn. If I ever ran low on work, it would probably take me a day or two and a few phone calls to find something. I don't work on anything unless I find it incredibly compelling. I write applications. I've see…
I build cool stuff, I have kept up to date on new technologies, and languages. But I don't have a big network of people who "need a website" and I don't build websites, so I don't have people constantly calling me offering me work. That doesn't make me someone who has "done the same job for 30 years". My skill is not marketing my skills on a freelance basis. My skill is in engineering.. and a variety of others (like…
I do. They almost certainly know more than I do about anything of any substance. Maybe they don't know node.js and mongodb as well as some young person, but they can figure that stuff much faster than I can learn any of the stuff they've learned throughout their life. I worry more about the opposite: who wants to work for someone young enough to be their child?
Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?
#2361.) Developers get comfortable with a given technology, and eventually stop learning. And the longer this goes on, the more exceedingly difficult it is to leave that comfort zone, because it makes you feel dumb and slow. When I first got into the industry, there were lots of folks doing things like IBM mainframe assembly and RPG/3 and COBOL. They'd tell me that that was where the real money was, and there was no need to learn new skills. After all, those systems weren't going anywhere, and they were bringing in fat checks. In fact, the more obscure the technology, the more money they make.
This particular trap of sticking with a technology is an insidious one that I almost fell into myself. In my early 30's, after working at the same place for about 10 years, I started coming to the conclusion that I was the best developer that I knew. I could do stuff in a weekend that other teams of people would fumble over for months. I was unstoppable. Then I changed jobs a couple times, and started doing game development, and started getting worried that I was actually not nearly as smart as I thought, and that I was losing my edge. But the real truth is simply that when you do the same kinds of jobs with the same technologies for many years, you get real good at doing those things. You find a comfort zone. And leaving that comfort zone feels wrong, stupid, and even counter-productive.
2.) It becomes tempting to switch to management. Over my career I've worked for innumerable managers who used to be developers in whatever technology was used 5 or 10 years ago, but now they do management. Often, they don't even realize how out of date their grasp on technology is. It's easy to fall into the trap of moving into management, because it's typically the only path to any kind of career development or upward mobility. I've gone into management myself for a few years, but then realized that if I want to be a good developer as my top priority, then I need to spend my time focusing on being the best at that, which can mean making some sacrifices. Once you move into management, you're done unless you keep your skills current.
3.) Developers need to continuously retrain themselves. This one kills most developers dead. You have to train yourself. The means not expecting your employer to do it for you or pay you to do it. Every 5-7 years over the last few decades I've totally changed my technology platform many times, and every time it was because I had spent the last year or so getting ready. I'm talking about spending a significant amount of time working with and understanding technologies other than the one you're using right now, say about 200 hours per year at least. I haven't read the responses on this forum yet, but I guarantee you will see a pattern of developers feeling like they don't need to work hard to retrain themselves. Saying things like, "programming is my job, it doesn't have to be my hobby as well." This is a fine attitude, as long as you aren't planning to be a developer for more than 5-10 years.
If you're in software development for the long haul, more than 5-10 years, then you have to be continuously training. If you're not absolutely serious about staying on top of new technology, then your skills will be obsolete and niche within 5-10 years.
Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?
#237This is true in any field: your employment picture looks very different at 40 than it does at 20. Lots of the reasons why are more due to real-life (TM) than the job market. At 20, you don't really mind renting a spare bedroom in the basement of somebody's house and working 100+ weeks trying to build the latest whatever non-world transforming consumer web thing. You have all the time in the world and no obligations b…
This is the best comment so far. I (~40) got out of development because the compensation/lifestyle, which was great for someone in their 20s, doesn't fit anymore. I'd go back in a heartbeat for the right package, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't exist. The real career path is in management or the business side, so a lot of people I know have moved over to that side. I love writing software, and still keep my skills up…
I´m still unsure if it's a path I want to follow indefinitely, but I agree with the parent that going out of your comfort zone presents you with a whole new set of challenges, which are not necessarily easier or more boring than purely technical ones.
Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?
#238I'm 46, I programmed a computer for the first time when I was 10, back when Pong was starting to wane and the Atari 2600 was starting to get big. I've been programming continuously since then for 36 years. It's been challenging me to stay with it that long, and most people I've known have dropped out for these reasons: 1.) Developers get comfortable with a given technology, and eventually stop learning. And the longe…
Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?
#239Earlier quoted context omitted.
"There is no engineering in programming." It really depends on the industry and context. Part of me really envies you if you can say that much and that reflects your experience. I spent most of today making sure that my SPMP, SQAP, SCMP, SRS, etc... documents conform to the relevant IEEE standard. If none of these acronyms means anything to you, again, I envy you.
It seems to me that in your case the relevant part is engineering, the standards are the real thing and programming is there to support them. This is not the case in my experience, where programming involves creating a new web site, a new database schema, a new game. There is little to no engineering on these fields, every day you see a newfangled "architecture" or "framework" or "API". EE is a much more standards dr…
Yet, the parent is talking about "programming", that is still the most important part (although still a part) of a Software Engineering project.
Software Engineering is a recognized discipline, and although I do work in an EE environment, I believe most software projects (which have a contractual obligation with a definite scope and a deadline) use it in a form or the other.