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Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

ayende.com

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Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#191
post #23

59, programming for 42 years, the last 35 professionally. Here on HN for 7.5 years. I've always been very busy (one of the main reasons I don't post on HN as much any more). I don't have a resume. I'm not on LinkedIn. If I ever ran low on work, it would probably take me a day or two and a few phone calls to find something. I don't work on anything unless I find it incredibly compelling. I write applications. I've see…

Right now there is a firehouse of job offers from recruiters on linkedin, and all a good developer has to do to find work is take a drink from that firehose. While I enjoy the current situation, it's unlikely to last. Sometimes we forget that there's plenty of people who have simply built up a clientele and a repuation through plain old networking. These jobs tend to be more lucrative and probably don't require you t…

"All".

All you have to do is sift through that firehose for jobs that match your expertise, at companies you wouldn't hate to work for, at rates and hours you'll accept, and that don't seem like they're just jerking you around. Then after you've expended that effort you can begin the actual process, which may fall through for any one of a billion reasons, not the least of which are that most recruiters are jackasses with little understanding of the actual field of work.

For anyone with a slightly complex set of skills just getting to square 1 of having a recruiter or HR person be able to understand your skillset is damned near impossible. And there's no way they'll actually be able to have a proper appreciation of your competency except in the crudest, most oblique manner possible (e.g. years of experience, "big" projects completed, expected wages, etc.) It's hard enough to have a conversation between talented, highly knowledgeable software devs which actually parses the differentiation between various job roles (like, say, systems engineering and web dev), which can span enormous ranges of differences. Trying to get the human resume regex parsers we know as recruiters and HR personnel to understand such things, good fucking luck. And yet today those people often stand between you and a job.

I could only imagine the state of the industry without word of mouth referrals.

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#192
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am finding a bit difficult to understand the "I am not good at networking" angle. Assuming a job change every 3 years, and 2 people to vouch for you at each, one would have a 10 people "marketing team" after 15 years. I am not talking about schmoozing with higher ups here; just impressing peers with the quality of work. Am I missing something?

> Assuming a job change every 3 years There you go. I spent (really too many) years at one small company after moving from a top-5 city to a top-20 city. And some of my contacts have left town. Also, even if I've got people who can vouch for me, how do I tell them I'm looking for work? (This might sound trivial but I haven't figured it out.)

I suspect no amount of networking would protect against moving away from the centres of industry.

Given the alternative is being stuck in a boring job, or low pay, or unemployment, what is so difficult in shooting an email asking if they know anyone hiring? What would your reaction be if you got such an email from an ex-colleague?

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure that's a totally valid sentiment. For starters, top-notch developers in the US earn salaries that approach CEO-level pay (ok, maybe not quite, but certainly top-5% salaries nationally). Even as a mid-level developer, my salary matched that of experienced project managers in my wife's previous line of work (large insurance company). And CEOs generally lead a very different lifestyle than a good developer.…

Come on.. Maybe you've seen developers at Google or somewhere like that make LameFailingCompanyCEO-level pay, but I highly doubt that "top-notch" developers anywhere earn salaries that approach CEO-level pay IN THE SAME COMPANY. Everywhere I've worked there has been a huge compensation cliff between the senior managers (anyone with the C?O title or their direct reports) and the rest of the peasants. I'm talking order…

From my post... "ok, maybe not quite, but certainly top-5% salaries nationally"

Is there where we get to discuss the gross over-compensation granted to CEOs in the US?

[I'm joking, I don't want to discuss that here]

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#194
post #134

Either you become CTO or you stay a Senior Software Developer forever. I have noticed a lot of age discrimination the "bay area startup scene". Not so much outside the bay area. I do wonder how long it is until someone gets sued for age discrimination when the way they knew the person's age was a video call. I see a lot of startups (including some YC ones) wanting to do a video call with a recruiter before even sendi…

> My impression is that front line HR people look for an excuse to screen people out... makes them feel important.

I'm under this same impression. I've referred people to be checked out for a department who have great works in frontend professional services teams. Even have a significant blog, examples that our current employees could be trained by...

Sure enough, while a 3.0 a couple years ago would be good at one college, we don't respect the college that they attended enough.

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#195
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure that's a totally valid sentiment. For starters, top-notch developers in the US earn salaries that approach CEO-level pay (ok, maybe not quite, but certainly top-5% salaries nationally). Even as a mid-level developer, my salary matched that of experienced project managers in my wife's previous line of work (large insurance company). And CEOs generally lead a very different lifestyle than a good developer.…

You're being a little vague. 5% is which markets? A programmer in SF might earn as much as a CXX from North Dakota but the CXX in his market is making a lot more than him. Still, I think at the CXX level the total compensation is a lot more. >$300k? $500k?

Top 5% of salaries nationally (in the US). Or, about $180,000. Yes, nowhere near the compensation that a C-level will earn at a major multi-national.

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the work is often unchallenging It's a different challenge. At a bank, you manage a system based on boring, mature technology, that processes billions worth of transactions every day. Or a server park of 20,000 machines. It's not mobile game development, but on the other hand at least it's not mobile game development.

(I've never worked at a bank, but I've talked with people who do.) It can also be work with too many grotty doesn't-teach-you-anything-technical challenges. For example, a bank that has acquired multiple companies with incompatible, archaic, poorly maintained systems, and struggles to keep them interoperating while stitching them together under some ill-considered technical policies and bizarre regulatory side constr…

I could tell war stories about bizarre regulatory side constraints (my favorite: on location in a country with very strict banking secrecy laws; having to work in the basement, in case someone might see customer data through the window using a telescope), but if a bank today doesn't have its IT department in order, it won't be able to compete with those who do.

Some banks can be so weirdly huge, that one department may be developing a simple website with last decade's technology, while another has computer scientists working on algorithms for a high frequency trading system with microsecond accuracy, which may never at any point have an unscheduled hiccup of a fraction of a second. As far as challenges are concerned, it's hit or miss, just like in any other sector.

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right now there is a firehouse of job offers from recruiters on linkedin, and all a good developer has to do to find work is take a drink from that firehose. While I enjoy the current situation, it's unlikely to last. Sometimes we forget that there's plenty of people who have simply built up a clientele and a repuation through plain old networking. These jobs tend to be more lucrative and probably don't require you t…

> Right now there is a [firehose] of job offers from recruiters on linkedin Interview offers, and they only come to the people who have the right combination of keywords and location. Miss on one or both of those counts, and you are invisible. The second seems to be much more important than the first, too.

I'd agree with that. I'd add that I live in Salt Lake City, Utah and still get a fair amount of offers. I realize it might be quite different in other countries.

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#198
I've noticed a basic pattern. Especially with web-based companies. Inexperienced / non-technical folks get put into important decision-making positions. They hire the young / hip devs. Definitely don't want to spend the money older devs are asking for. Also it "kills the vibe" to have 30-somethings in the office when you're a company full of 20'somethings. They spend a few years on the project. With project deadline looming, and no idea how they're going to finish, they bring in the older devs for short contracts to try to finish the job before deadline.

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#199
If you are 35+ and technically savvy you really ought to consider launching your own business online. By far the best program I've seen that takes people from newbies to online business owners is here:

www.ProjectAmericanDream.com

Full disclosure: I am an investor and know dozens of people doing the program, friends and family members. Most successfully.

Older programmers have lots of challenges. Being good has nothing to do with it. If you didn't build a network as you went through your career you are going to have a hard time at 50+. Age discrimintion is very real in certain circles. An then there's the ridiculous process through which some choose to evaluate or filter people.

I have never been a freelance programmer, always an entrepreneur so I never experienced this first hand. That said, I've always had good relationships with recruiters because of my need to hire engineers for my businesses. I often get to hear war stories over a cup of coffee.

If I had to summarize what seems to bother me the most and strike me as most unfair is what I call the search for the instant language x and framework y programmer. It seems there are companies who only care about an instant and immediate fit with the language and tools they are using rather than to search for unique experienced talent and new thinking. A software engineer with decades of experience and a solid foundation in Computer Science has gone through several language/tools/frameworks transitions. Their value goes far beyond being able to write fizzbuzz in a certain language in 15 minutes. That's myopic and really juvenile in my opinion. No, these people can offer strategy, structure, safety, planning, ideas, process and a whole host of other valuable contibutions to an organization and yet they might fail a language x and framework y interview test. Once hired they can learn the desired language/framework very quickly yet there seem to be lots of examples of people not getting past that firewall due to, again, in my opinion, misplaced priorities in the hiring process.

Some of the best people I have hired knew absolutely nothing about the tools and frameworks we were using. Because I never look to fit people into a little box that has never been an issue with the way I hire at all. If someone is really good and can bring solid value to the organization I gladly spend several thousand dollars sending them to courses to get them up to speed. Inside of a month you have someone with amazing value who can now jump in and rock with the tools you happen to be using.

One example I can offer that isn't direcly related to CS is when I hired a machinist to help run our CNC shop stocked with the latest Haas CNC machines. He had NEVER run a CNC machine. Didn't even know the first thing about G-code. He had 40 years of machining experience. He blew me away when he showed me a whole bunch of little machinist utilities he wrote for his HP-41 calculator. I hired him on the spot. I probably invested about $10K in various classes getting him up to speed on CNC. This guy was AMAZING we learned a ton from him, for some of us lessons that will stay with us the rest of our lives. A mentor in the true sense of the word.

So, yeah, at some level I think hiring, in certain segments of the industry, is broken.

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#200

I'm 53 with an EE degree, went to programming because it so happened that there was a telecommunications research center close by the school. And programming looked cooler and easier than EE. I compare programming to writing, more than engineering. There is no engineering in programming. No matter how many "methodologies" are created, writing good programs and good systems is akin to writing a good story or a good bo…

I couldn't agree more with this notion, with the caveat that the writing happens in second and third and fourth languages.

So learning programming is like learning language, and should be taught similarly -- lots of feedback (REPL, throwaway projects/conversations) to develop fluency, and once you can carry on conversations, start specializing into specific, valuable subjects you may want to talk about and do business in.

But programming is definitely writing.

All of the most fundamental hard-science engineering advances end up, not just being encapsulated into libraries, but woven into the languages themselves (garbage collection, lexical closures, laziness, STM, generics, ownership and borrowing...), and programmers express their (executable) ideas more clearly using language appropriate to the topic.

I read about, for instance, PG Wodehouse pinning every single page of his book up on a vast wall in a grid, so he could take it all in and then take a step forward and consider what was being accomplished over the course of these two or three pages, and see at a high level what was working or not.

Or Raymond Chandler exploiting the existence of pulps to throw away heavyweight notions of story in favor of a medium where you can just choose to have a man burst through a door with a gun in his hand, so he could throw readers right into the meat of a story. And then burnishing his little hacks to gemstone luminousness by writing them to, according to him, the same level of quality as the "slick magazine stories" of his day.

And Chandler's insistence on the importance of actually playing with, and loving, the words themselves, at the sentence level ...

I think all of the things that make programming unique have to do with its connections to, 1) our basic human language capabilities, and 2) writing for two audiences at once.

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