Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

ayende.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

171–180 of 326 posts

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#171

Post by DennisP »

shams93 wrote: post #124
31reasons wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>75% - one year's experience 30 times, not 30 years experience. You don't want these people. You are basically saying 75% of the developers after certain age are useless. I don't agree or disagree with your statement . Just startled. What does it say about software development as a career ? Would you say the same thing for lawyers or doctors with 30 years experience? This is depressing.

Down here in Los Angeles the talent pool is very shallow, now we are starting to see the first companies offering equity down here that is meaningful since 1998, seriously. If I hadn't had to go the last 14 years without equity I wouldn't still be coding pushing 43, I'd be an angel investor, basically making a living helping to fund companies. With no equity life is a kind of living hell, no ability to have the norma…

Sounds like LA is a pretty crappy market for employees. Move someplace with a reasonable cost of living and some big corporations, stick with corporate-friendly technologies, and it's not too hard to pull a six-figure salary in an easy 40 hrs/wk.

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#172

Post by Luyt »

I'm 48 and programming since I was 11 (on a PET-2001 ;-). A few years ago I wrote up a 'résumé' because everybody seemed to had one - since then, a few people told me it's more a 'bio' than a 'résumé', but who cares... It's at http://www.michielovertoom.com/cv/software-developer/

"I was born in the mid-sixties and got in touch with software programming at an early age. It became my hobby, along with the field of electronics. I was very keen to get to know exactly how things worked and what was happening, even up to the level of the silicon. In those days I spent more time reading datasheets and computer manuals than I did reading comics. "

I find great joy in exploring new technologies. At the moment, I'm learning Docker.

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#173

Post by Kurtz79 »

ThomaszKrueger wrote: post #92

I'm 53 with an EE degree, went to programming because it so happened that there was a telecommunications research center close by the school. And programming looked cooler and easier than EE. I compare programming to writing, more than engineering. There is no engineering in programming. No matter how many "methodologies" are created, writing good programs and good systems is akin to writing a good story or a good bo…

"There is no engineering in programming."

It really depends on the industry and context. Part of me really envies you if you can say that much and that reflects your experience.

I spent most of today making sure that my SPMP, SQAP, SCMP, SRS, etc... documents conform to the relevant IEEE standard.

If none of these acronyms means anything to you, again, I envy you.

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#174

Post by danielweber »

hga wrote: post #142
MCRed wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many years of experience do you keep on your resume? I've been keeping 20, but it seems the bay area startups can smell that I'm old. (I've not met age discrimination outside of the bay area startups run by 22 year old type companies.)

Roughly a dozen years, under the heading "Recent Relevant Experience". But I went more by the oldest jobs that looked really good on my resume, like being the VP of tech or being directly or indirectly responsible for most of my company's revenue, and including figures. Even better than developing software that you claim works is having people buying it and proving it works.

My first post-college job I created a piece of security software and I still run into people that say "you wrote that? We use that!"

But I've also noticed the people who love talking with me about that are not hiring me. It seems they bring me in to reminisce about the old days, and then go hire someone else. As nice as it feels for my ego, I might drop it.

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#175

Post by ryandrake »

michaelochurch wrote: post #88
PeterisP wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, if I look at tech field as a whole, it seems quite realistic that there are 10000 more VP-level positions across the many companies than the Fellow-level positions, of which 99% of companies don't have any at all. My home city likely has thousands of software-related VP's, but has 0 Fellow-like positions, they're very uncommon globally. Quite literally. If I want to be a manager of a sizeable bunch of progr…

Correct. Also, engineers are promoted "confirmationally" (meaning, after they're performing at level X) and managers are promoted "aspirationally" (when people think they should be able to reach level X). Google prides itself on promoting only confirmationally, and engineers like it that way because it's more meritocratic. The problem is that product people and management still get aspirational promotion, and that's…

This is a really good point. As someone who wrote software for over a decade, then moved to the business/management side, I can tell you that on the business side (and to a lesser extent, in engineering management), there is far more opportunity to "punch way above your weight class". In fact, many places expect you to.

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#176

Post by Iftheshoefits »

hcho wrote: post #167
MCRed wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I build cool stuff, I have kept up to date on new technologies, and languages. But I don't have a big network of people who "need a website" and I don't build websites, so I don't have people constantly calling me offering me work. That doesn't make me someone who has "done the same job for 30 years". My skill is not marketing my skills on a freelance basis. My skill is in engineering.. and a variety of others (like…

I am finding a bit difficult to understand the "I am not good at networking" angle. Assuming a job change every 3 years, and 2 people to vouch for you at each, one would have a 10 people "marketing team" after 15 years. I am not talking about schmoozing with higher ups here; just impressing peers with the quality of work. Am I missing something?

There are introverts, and then there are introverts. I can easily see somebody who is particularly introverted not developing a deep network after 10, 20, or even 30 years of experience, simply because they are very introverted (or socially maladjusted; the two are different, but in a world run by extroverts it is arguable that they may as well not be). I'm not that introverted, but I'm introverted enough that it is by sheer luck I have more than two people from my first few jobs I could ask for references or even directly for work. My last couple of jobs, however, have been another matter--I "got over it," as they say, and have put more effort into networking. I even recently developed a connection completely outside of work!

Leavnig that aside, sometimes people move or switch focus or have to take jobs at crappy "body shop" companies to make ends meet during a bust, etc. Hence the quality of the network isn't necessarily good enough to have the kind of "I need a job, whatcha got" connections you mention.

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#177

Post by shawabawa3 »

hcho wrote: post #167
MCRed wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I build cool stuff, I have kept up to date on new technologies, and languages. But I don't have a big network of people who "need a website" and I don't build websites, so I don't have people constantly calling me offering me work. That doesn't make me someone who has "done the same job for 30 years". My skill is not marketing my skills on a freelance basis. My skill is in engineering.. and a variety of others (like…

I am finding a bit difficult to understand the "I am not good at networking" angle. Assuming a job change every 3 years, and 2 people to vouch for you at each, one would have a 10 people "marketing team" after 15 years. I am not talking about schmoozing with higher ups here; just impressing peers with the quality of work. Am I missing something?

What am I supposed to do exactly? Call up some co-worker from 3+ years ago and say "hi, remember me? Can you get me a job?"

I don't have a network. I have friends and I have colleagues, but I don't really have anyone that could get me job leads (maybe a couple of my friends)

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#178

Post by dreamweapon »

enraged_camel wrote: post #141
teh_klev wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm 47* and I've been around a bit (dotcom era startups to banking and telecoms) and I'm familiar with the 75% mentioned. There is a type of programmer that works away in blue chips turning up to work on time, doing what's asked of them and then knocking off at half five. Sure they maybe repeat the same one year's experience year after year perhaps with some technology transitioning years from COBOL to VB to VB.NET o…

>> It's just a job I can understand this mentality, but cannot sympathize with it. Personally, I refuse to treat my job as "just a job." I want it to mean something. I want to look forward to coming to work everyday. I want to feel like the work I do makes a difference, as opposed to fizzle out and die in the massive corporate bureaucracy. I hate the idea that I'm just spinning my wheels, looking busy, collecting a p…

Personally, I refuse to treat my job as "just a job." I want it to mean something.

That's fine for you, and quite a laudable position to take.

But the reality is, in a great many environments, across the board -- in blue chips as well as in startups (often quite insidiously so) -- as soon as you start personally investing in your work, you start taking on considerable risks. It means, almost by definition, you're going to start butting heads with people -- or at least take on a heavy risk of appearing to others like you're butting heads with them, even though you're not. Because they'll have to start justifying their own decisions, and exposing their own lack of depth and experience. And that's really, really threatening to a lot of people.

The safest route, by far? Keep your head down, and don't become "personally invested" in your work. Otherwise you risk becoming (per the Japanese proverb) "the stake that sticks up."

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#179

Post by InclinedPlane »

hcho wrote: post #167
MCRed wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I build cool stuff, I have kept up to date on new technologies, and languages. But I don't have a big network of people who "need a website" and I don't build websites, so I don't have people constantly calling me offering me work. That doesn't make me someone who has "done the same job for 30 years". My skill is not marketing my skills on a freelance basis. My skill is in engineering.. and a variety of others (like…

I am finding a bit difficult to understand the "I am not good at networking" angle. Assuming a job change every 3 years, and 2 people to vouch for you at each, one would have a 10 people "marketing team" after 15 years. I am not talking about schmoozing with higher ups here; just impressing peers with the quality of work. Am I missing something?

The problem is you think this is somehow normal. That's not how all engineers work. Maybe you work a job and do good work, but then the team disintegrates, people quit, you lose track of co-workers because they were just co-workers and not friends (even if you had an excellent working relationship). It's not necessarily normal at all to retain close relationships with past co-workers, even less so to routinely network through them let alone retain them as references.

The entire reason LinkedIn exists is because most people, even many very highly skilled people in professional career roles, find it difficult to make effective use of such networks, for example. And if you're an engineer who has experienced a rough patch of employment or worked at a company or in a role or under a boss they hated or experienced a period of burnout or underperformed somewhere due to any of those circumstances the whole thing gets that much more difficult.

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#180

Post by mattfrommars »

etrevino wrote: post #96
mattfrommars wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any tips on getting those entry level reporting job at banks who pay 150,000 USD? I'm 23 so I'm willing to leearn.

The programmers aren't entry level, but the work they're doing is entry level (in difficulty and maybe in quality). I've worked for a bank before and the environment (for this level of work) is stultifying. I just fell into the work, though, and I left after a couple of years. I wouldn't know where to seek it out. HOWEVER, I can give you a little bit of advice on what skills might be a little bit useful. You want to…

I did look into SAP modules and thought about learning them but how do I market myself after learning the fundamentals? Don't they require some sort of computer degree? How do I gain professional experience which the job opening might require? That thought made me abandon learning SAP.
Post reply on HN