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Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

ayende.com

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Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#81
I'm only 34 but already I'm finding most developer job ads target much younger developers who like to work hard and play hard. At some point Beer Fridays, foosball and video games stop being appealing "perks" and actually become a disincentive ("I don't want to work where everyone is 15 years younger than me and plays foosball all day!"). So if you're advertising jobs in this fashion you're self selecting for younger devs.

Older devs will just rely on previous connections to find new work or stay in positions that pay well and come with lots of vacation (as/more important than pay to me).

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#82
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

which route involve working in "the trenches", whilst still getting paid management level salaries? The engineering track at AmaGooBookSoft. You'll earn +/- $200k a year mid-career and have roughly zero market or execution risk. There exist many options if you're willing to take more than a W-2 employee level of risk. (e.g. Found a boutique consultancy. Redirect the conversation when your W-2 friends ask what your we…

I'm working at a services firm in India and am not good enough to get into AmaGooBookSoft. What do I do ?

Improve by working on side projects.

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#83
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Thanks, but I prefer coding, I'd rather stay where I am". "...but i want more pay - how about CEO level pay?" "nope."

I'm not sure that's a totally valid sentiment. For starters, top-notch developers in the US earn salaries that approach CEO-level pay (ok, maybe not quite, but certainly top-5% salaries nationally). Even as a mid-level developer, my salary matched that of experienced project managers in my wife's previous line of work (large insurance company). And CEOs generally lead a very different lifestyle than a good developer.…

You're being a little vague. 5% is which markets? A programmer in SF might earn as much as a CXX from North Dakota but the CXX in his market is making a lot more than him. Still, I think at the CXX level the total compensation is a lot more. >$300k? $500k?

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#84
post #76

You wind up taking "haircuts" and doing without equity here in Los Angeles till you are like me, 43 and forced to live in a squat with no running water because the startup you were working for decided to kick up your hours to 21 days, 7 days a week with no overtime, and then cuts your base pay by 2/3 so the founders don't take a haircut, this has been happening over and over for 14 years for me to the point where thi…

Why do you let them treat you like that? There are other options.

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#86
post #27

In most of the organizations I've worked for you reach a salary cap as an engineer. The only way to make more is to become a manager where you get paid more simply because you're part of the group deciding how much people get paid. The other career path I've seen is the architect route where a skilled developer no longer codes but instead spends their time helping others design good software.

both of those routes is boring - which route involve working in "the trenches", whilst still getting paid management level salaries? Don't say startup because that's just money earned on risk-taking, not guaranteed payment like a salary.

If you constrain a problem enough it eventually becomes impossible. The odds of staying "in the trenches" and getting a management level salary are extremely low outside of a company you own a large portion of or a consultancy. When you have the same skills everyone else has you can't command a salary appreciably greater than theirs.

Why is it this way? Because there are more programmers who can do your job than there are managers who can manage you. You can argue that's unfair, but it's the way it is. The managers have skills that are in demand, and despite what the general HN attitude towards managers/executives is they are important to the success of most businesses.

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#87
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haha, I see this a lot. Banks who pay mediocre developers $150k a year plus crazy benefits to write entry-level reports because fuck it; the salary for the entire IT department is a rounding error on the bonus pool for the traders so who gives a shit? Good luck getting those guys out of a job like that. Not saying you're mediocre; but a job like that leads to mediocrity and complacency because the work is often uncha…

Any tips on getting those entry level reporting job at banks who pay 150,000 USD? I'm 23 so I'm willing to leearn.

work in wall street or the City supporting traders and their ghastly self written excel POS - and expect to get the "I have a pair of shoes that cost more than your entre wardrobe" gibes

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It's 100 times harder to become a Principal Engineer (Director-equivalent) than to hop on to the management ladder and make Director. It's 10,000 times harder to become a Google Fellow (VP-equivalent) than to make VP." I think it is obvious given total headcount that there aren't 10,000 times as many VPs as Fellows. And given I know of way more people going from IC to Management positions than the other way around,…

Actually, if I look at tech field as a whole, it seems quite realistic that there are 10000 more VP-level positions across the many companies than the Fellow-level positions, of which 99% of companies don't have any at all. My home city likely has thousands of software-related VP's, but has 0 Fellow-like positions, they're very uncommon globally. Quite literally. If I want to be a manager of a sizeable bunch of progr…

Correct. Also, engineers are promoted "confirmationally" (meaning, after they're performing at level X) and managers are promoted "aspirationally" (when people think they should be able to reach level X). Google prides itself on promoting only confirmationally, and engineers like it that way because it's more meritocratic. The problem is that product people and management still get aspirational promotion, and that's a huge leg up.

Over time, they advance a lot faster than we do. We have to take on above-level responsibilities (which is politically dangerous, because people start to wonder if you're neglecting your at- and below-level job duties) to advance. They don't.

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#89
As an old dev (47) who's main focus is now management (the only thing I still program is devops stuff), there are some reasons why I stopped being a developer a few years back:

1) Developers are treated without much respect. Seriously, even with the scarcity, and even when we do get paid well (which is relatively rare) and have nice perks, developers still don't get the kind of respect other similarly highly skilled professionals get. At some point, when you get in your mid-30's and compare yourself with other professionals in the same age group, this really starts to grate.

2) The vast majority of companies still doesn't know how to make developers function properly. Those of us who discuss stuff like Agile, "manager / maker schedule", remote working, the pros and cons of open office plans, etcetera form a tiny minority, and we live in an echo chamber. 90% of all devs are still code monkeys in the basement. As a developer with a bit of experience and authority I decided to put my effort in changing that (i.e., get into management) to make life better for other developers.

3) I felt I was just repeating myself, basically doing the same thing on different platforms in different languages. I found it harder to learn new stuff not because I got "too old to learn", but because I didn't see anything particularly "new" in it, just same shit, different platform, which wasn't particularly motivating. (The only exception is the "cloud", because approaching the infrastructure as a dynamic, programmable resource is actually something new and challenging.)

Salary is still very much an issue. All this talk about developers getting paid so much is total bullshit, with the possible exception of a small minority of SV companies. Developers are seriously underpaid compared to their economic value and scarcity, and it's mostly just a matter of a lack of respect for "techies".

Personally, I don't care about the money (as a manager I currently choose to not get paid more than my best developers, which is making my bosses kinda nervous), but the feeling of getting screwed just pisses me off.

Most of you that are reading this: you are most likely not getting paid what you are worth. Not even close. Yes, even those who think they're doing fine. I've seen the numbers, and as a profession we are collectively getting screwed, with very few exceptions.

There are many professions in which people are less scarce, require less skill, knowledge and experience and add less economic value and still get paid considerably more simply because they are not "techies".

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#90
post #32

Falsification: around and after age 35 I found it increasingly difficult to find work, until I got a clue and scrubbed my resume of all evidence of exactly how old I was (removed education dates; I'd already been trimming older jobs due to length and lack of relevance). Did that in the midst of one job search and the difference was like night and day. BIG caveat: my family and I look a lot younger than we are, with n…

Its the reason I still wear my hair in a pony tail - I have good genes and am not losing my hair.
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